AMROZI PAHLAWAN ISLAM YG KETINGGALAN ZAMAN.SEKARANG BUKAN LAGI PAHLAWAN namanya tapi TERORIST TERKUTUK BAGI INDONESIA DAN DUNIA.

Amrozi

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  1. therry Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
    Just kill the bastard already! Wife or no wife, shot 5 times or 10 times I don’t care. He obviously didn’t care either when he decided to blast Bali and kill those innocent people, so why should we?

    It’s been to bloody long anyway. He’s probably looking forward to death so that he can meet his 72 virgins!

  2. Janma Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 1:29 pm

    TPM had requested clarification from the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) on whether death by firing squad was a legitimate method of capital punishment within Islam. [3]

    After a person has been shot they don’t die for 5 minutes, so it’s torture, but if firing squads are deemed within the bounds of Islamic law [by the MUI], well then that’s it.

    ????? what the hell are they talking about!? there were no guns when the quran was written in the first place, so they cant’ very well look it up can they? and as for saying a person who is shot doesn’t die for 5 minutes? Is he a retard!? I think let them blow themselves up in in a specially made bunker, that way there should be enough pieces to share amongst the virgins.

    Plus I think it is totally unfair that they aren’t being executed in bali. why they always get special treatment…..

  3. GJ Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
    Seems like a blatant attempt of self promotion by the EX wife. I wonder if widows get some sort of special privilege, cynical bastard I am!!
  4. Lairedion Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
    @GJ,

    Widows of jihadists are being picked up by other jihadists. Once Amrozi has been executed Rahma has a great chance of being married by our dear friend Cukurungan.

  5. djoko Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 3:16 pm
    It hasn’t dawned on anyone that he is in actual fact receiving a very Islamic punishment: execution for the crime of murder?

    Dilemma of the day: the death penalty – is it a good or bad thing? When to use it?

  6. Lairedion Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    It hasn’t dawned on anyone that he is in actual fact receiving a very Islamic punishment: execution for the crime of murder?

    Dilemma of the day: the death penalty – is it a good or bad thing? When to use it?

    It hasn’t dawned to you that this so-called very Islamic punishment hasn’t been carried out yet.

    Dilemma of the day: the death penalty – is it carried out earlier with non-Muslims (the three Catholics from Poso) than Muslims ( the Bali bombers)?

  7. Andrew Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    Mahendradatta of the TPM had requested clarification from the Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI) on whether death by firing squad was a legitimate method of capital punishment within Islam.

    Hell, it’s a legitimate method of capital punishment by NKRI legal system, so why should anyone give a S**T whether it’s legitimate for the scumbag’s religion? Didn’t he want to die by blowing himself up anyway? or has he changed his mind, has he chickened out?

    By the way, their “act of bravery” of committing suicide by blowing themselves up is to pussycat what seppuku is to tiger. Give them a blade, see if they still have the ball to slice open their belly.

  8. Enigmatic Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
    Just kill the f*cking bastard and let him meet his 72 virgins. Surely 72 virgins beats his 1 non virgin ex wife… Unless you compare sexual experience ;-)

    And how could he actually still get such privileges of media coverage to marry his ex-wife when the Poso trio get no attention whatsoever? And why so much delays over the time of his execution? What rubbish is this?

  9. shorty Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
    amrozi and his co convicted were sentenced to death.

    until such sentence is carried out they should be treated with no more, nor no less consideration than any other prisoner.

    we demean ourselves by asking or expecting for anything less.

    if we want ri to be a democracy where the rule of law is paramount, we must learn to impartially accept the process.

    i had friends, both local and european, killed and injured in these bombings.

    i want amrozi and his co convicted dealt with legally.

    to want other makes me no better than him.

  10. djoko Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
    @ Lairedion:

    It’s strange, there are over 90 death penalty cases where the legal processes are complete but the executions haven’t been carried out

    All Muslim terrorists I suppose?

  11. Lairedion Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
    Can you explain me why the Poso three were quickly executed where these creeps are still around?
  12. djoko Says:
    May 12th, 2008 at 11:39 pm

    Can you explain me why the Poso three were quickly executed where these creeps are still around?

    Inefficient administration? Corruption? Something else?

    Oh hang on I know what you mean. Favoritism right? The government hates non-Muslims and can’t wait to pull the trigger on them. As for Muslims, and especially Muslim terrorists, they love them right, and can’t bear to part with them?

    Perhaps what you can explain to me then is why the other 90 death row inmates mentioned haven’t been executed either? A bunch of Australians (no Muslims sorry) are on death row for drug smuggling and they haven’t been executed yet either. Favouritism for drug dealers or Australians or foreigners in general I suppose?

  13. Lairedion Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 1:23 am

    Oh hang on I know what you mean. Favoritism right? The government hates non-Muslims and can’t wait to pull the trigger on them. As for Muslims, and especially Muslim terrorists, they love them right, and can’t bear to part with them?

    That’s right. Thanks for clarifying….

  14. gigi Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 7:42 am
    @ djoko

    Perhaps what you can explain to me then is why the other 90 death row inmates mentioned haven’t been executed either? A bunch of Australians (no Muslims sorry) are on death row for drug smuggling and they haven’t been executed yet either. Favouritism for drug dealers or Australians or foreigners in general I suppose?

    Touche! The funny thing is, the very same people who advocated that those drug dealers should not be executed out of human rights concerns or that Indonesia should abolish it’s death sentence policy are now chanting “Burn Amrozi and co.” or “Kill them already” or even “Shoot those bloody bastards”. Hypocrisy anyone?

    Did they even realize that drugs that those traffickers brought to Indonesia (and worldwide for that matter) killed countless more than extremists like Amrozi and his ilks could ever imagined annually?

  15. Cukurungan Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 8:09 am
    In the wake of the execution of the famous baby and woman killer of Fabianus Tibo, Marinus Riwu, and Dominggus da Silva

    here the comment :

    SA Says:

    September 25th, 2006 at 7:51 am
    For the members of the Family of Fabianus Tibo, Marinus Riwu and Dominggus da Silva, be strong and remember that their souls are in heaven now with Jesus.

    Our heartfelt sympathy goes out to those people on their passing. Our prayers be with you all in this time of loss.
    May god continue to bless and comfort each of you.

    ak Says
    As if death is not enough. Whoever did this is an uncivilized person. So much for human rights.
    May God give eternal peace.As if death is not enough. Whoever did this is an uncivilized person. So much for human rights.
    May God give eternal peace.

    Andrew Says:

    September 30th, 2006 at 2:42 am
    I have no doubt that Tibo et al are with the Lord now. Let’s just wait and see if justice and accountibility really exist in Indonesia.

    Those executioners think they can get away. On the judgement day, they will have to answer God. May He forgive them.

    But in the bali bomber case case the tone is changed suddently here:

    Enigmatic Says:

    May 12th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
    Just kill the f*cking bastard and let him meet his 72 virgins. Surely 72 virgins beats his 1 non virgin ex wife… Unless you compare sexual experience

    And how could he actually still get such privileges of media coverage to marry his ex-wife when the Poso trio get no attention whatsoever? And why so much delays over the time of his execution? What rubbish is this?

    Andrew Says:

    September 30th, 2006 at 2:42 am
    I have no doubt that Tibo et al are with the Lord now. Let’s just wait and see if justice and accountibility really exist in Indonesia.

    Those executioners think they can get away. On the judgement day, they will have to answer God. May He forgive them.

    For me it is very very Good …God willing to show to us again and again who they are and this strong evidence give us a solid justifications that we do not need to pay any attention to other people comment and opinion but we have to focus prepare anything neccesary to protect our interest at whatever cost and whatever mean.

    Widows of jihadists are being picked up by other jihadists. Once Amrozi has been executed Rahma has a great chance of being married by our dear friend Cukurungan.

    Brother I feel jealousy in your tone but if you want to a privilege of the Muslim Man …do not be shy you can follow my pad without my permission

  16. sputjam Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 9:57 am
    An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. But the best act within the sight of God is forgiveness.
    Amrozi, who thinks he is muslim, will be denied the 72 virgins, because God never made such promise.
    Upon his death, he will be judged by his deeds alone, not the amount of ritual worship, nor the number of pious children he garnered.
    Any man who embraces a religion, will eventually indulge in idol worship and create oppression, injustice and mayhem on earth.
    Amrozi was one such person, who blindly followed the words of his masters on earth, without thinking.
    He will ultimately face The Creator, The Judge. For Only God can decide his eternal fate.
    There is no requirement to worship God. For He is free of all wants. Focus on deeds of goodness. Be just and righteous. Confront the oppressors. And praise God alone.
    This was the messages relayed by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohamed and many more.
  17. Dykarg Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 11:16 am
    What is deceiving for me is just our consistency to apply our own law. Just too often we say about something, but then doing other thing, for un-transparent reason.
    If it had been decided to execute them, then what we are waiting for, either for drug dealers, or for Amrozy.
  18. Rambutan Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

    Dilemma of the day: the death penalty – is it a good or bad thing? When to use it?

    It’s bad, it’s inhumane, it should be banned. Titik.

  19. dewaratugedeanom Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
    The fact that this vermin has been allowed to breathe our precious air for more than 5 years after the events is unforgivable. But I agree that he should be shot in Cilacap to prevent his blood from defiling Balinese soil.

    djoko said

    Dilemma of the day: the death penalty – is it a good or bad thing? When to use it?

    The death penalty is debatable as far as it concerns humans, a category that doesn’t befit Amrozi dkk.

  20. Mach Jabber Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
    I can only quote Therry back for truth.

    “Just kill the bastard already”.

    They make it like his execution is some kind of rite and he’s some kind of VIP.

  21. Lairedion Says:
    May 13th, 2008 at 8:40 pm

    Brother I feel jealousy in your tone but if you want to a privilege of the Muslim Man …do not be shy you can follow my pad without my permission

    Brother, I must admit the prospect of spreading their wings all open wide and fill them up inside in stead of letting them grieve and mourn so shortly after they lost their loved ones is very tempting. But hey, who cares? It’s all for the great cause of Islam, right?

    Concerning the death penalty, basically I’m against it. A death sentence is the easy way out for these kind of criminals and I would rather see these creeps doing life in the worst circumstances and let inmates take care of each other. Since Amrozi can shake hands, laugh and pose for photographs with Da’i Bachtiar it’s better to shoot the bastard in his lower belly so he can have a slow, painful death.

  22. Irwandiaz Says:
    May 14th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
    Amrozy is human too.
  23. Cukurungan Says:
    May 14th, 2008 at 4:26 pm

    But I agree that he should be shot in Cilacap to prevent his blood from defiling Balinese soil

    Bli Dewa kudos for you, wholehearted agree that Bali soil should not be polluted with the Muslim blood because the scared Bali soil should be fertilized only with the purity of “lendir selangkangan” Kuta Cowboy and His client.

  24. gigi Says:
    May 14th, 2008 at 5:17 pm

    Bli Dewa kudos for you, wholehearted agree that Bali soil should not be polluted with the Muslim blood because the scared Bali soil should be fertilized only with the purity of “lendir selangkangan” Kuta Cowboy and His client.

    I think the proper translation for “lendir selangkangan” is crotch fluid, but let’s not get into semantics, shall we? D

  25. dewaratugedeanom Says:
    May 14th, 2008 at 7:18 pm
    Cukurungan

    Bli Dewa kudos for you, wholehearted agree that Bali soil should not be polluted with the Muslim blood because the scared Bali soil should be fertilized only with the purity of “lendir selangkangan” Kuta Cowboy and His client.

    ’scared’ Bali soil??? Sacred maybe, but scared?
    Wishful thinking, isn’t it, Cukurungan.

  26. Rob Says:
    May 14th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
    Will he be allowed a conjugal visit?

    Just what we need some little “bin Amrozi’s” joining the jihad cause!

    I am against the death penalty!

    I personally think that these fellas should rot in jail! Shooting these blokes is a waste of perfectly good bullets! By shooting them you run the risk of making them martyrs and hence the little bin Amrozi’s, Samudera’s and Ghufron’s would have something to rally behind!

    It is an interesting question why the executions / murders of the Poso three were expedited and these blokes are being given every consideration under the sun. There are stark differences — the Poso three claimed innocence (whether provable or true is another story) and the Bali Bombers have confessed and have shown no remorse and are supposedly looking forward to the day they get to eat lead and die!

    When push comes to shove these fellas are on death row. So, if the MUI in its infinite wisdom issues a fatwa and says that death by firing squad is un-Islamic, so what? The government then goes out and finds a capable swordsman to smite them across the neck (some might prefer that a blunt blade is used). Or can people be stoned to death in Islam for crimes other than adultery? I think there might be a line of people will to cast the first stone!

  27. LavanyaLea Says:
    May 15th, 2008 at 3:59 am
    I think he just wants to make lil baby Amrozis to carry on the jihad!
  28. Cukurungan Says:
    May 15th, 2008 at 7:40 am

    ’scared’ Bali soil??? Sacred maybe, but scared?
    Wishful thinking, isn’t it, Cukurungan.

    My little Brother sorry, you are correct but I am somewhat wondering with your post lately why you tend to become “Achmad Style” rather as future Jihadist Commander as I have put assignment on you.

  29. Marisa Says:
    May 16th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
    He is merely mocking his infidel enemies. He, or it.
    The search of affirmative power would have to move on and the whatever radical organization that once present him with such power is starting to leave him behind sooner or later.
    Amrozi will only be truly punished once he regrets and mourns for his act, and he realized it. He doesn’t want to amuse the enemies, he wants to tick them off.

    Never underestimate these radicals, they might’ve ingeniously understood the psychology of terror way before they’ve learned how to detonate bombs.

  30. dewaratugedeanom Says:
    May 16th, 2008 at 7:12 pm
    gigi said

    I think the proper translation for “lendir selangkangan” is crotch fluid, but let’s not get into semantics, shall we?

    Insyallah, IM has been blessed with another bright IQ!

190 Comments on “Amrozi Execution”

Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 »

  1. dnj_jkt Says:
    May 17th, 2008 at 6:41 pm
    Well, I’ve never really been an advocate for the death penalty, but now I am starting to wonder…….to wonder why I didn’t support it all along. I noticed the double standards here,.. The Poso trio being quickly executed, while Bali Bomb 1 are still alive and kicking and making TV appearances…….

    On the subject of TV appearances, I suggest that Cukuran might like to do a google search for Achmed the dead Terrorist…..A ventriloquist with a skeleton puppet with big beady eyes, a rag wrapped round his head, and one of those village goat beards favoured by extremists….you will find it hilariously funny…specially if you can get on YouTube, as there is a Christmas special, where he sings Jingle Bombs, and makes jokes about Jews and Catholic priests. The tolerance levels of infidels, and the ability to find humour directed at their own, is what sets them apart from the muslim world

  2. gigi Says:
    May 18th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
    @ dewaratugedenenenanom :

    Insyallah, IM has been blessed with another bright IQ!

    I was merely giving an explanation for our non Indonesian-speaking colleagues. If that’s intelligent in the eyes of a surfer dude like you then thanks, but the standard isn’t that high in the first place right? I mean, coming from a surfer dude and all.. ;)

  3. Rob Says:
    May 18th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
    I just do not see the facts and figures that support the idea that the death penalty acts as a deterrent to the commission of crimes.

    For a terrorist the idea of being executed for the cause is one of martydom and not punishment. This idea that these fellas are appealing against the death penalty and seeking to avoid it because death by firing squad is nto recognized in the Qur’an is but a furphy! If they prefer to have their collective heads removed by a sword then so be it! For all and sundry wanting to see the sentence carried out as soon as possible then the method of their respective deaths is irrelevant. What matters is that they are executed!

    Patience is a virtue…the time is coming where these three fellas will be meeting their maker and wouldn’t you just love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation!

  4. Enigmatic Says:
    May 19th, 2008 at 10:51 pm

    Rob Says:

    May 18th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
    I just do not see the facts and figures that support the idea that the death penalty acts as a deterrent to the commission of crimes.

    For a terrorist the idea of being executed for the cause is one of martydom and not punishment. This idea that these fellas are appealing against the death penalty and seeking to avoid it because death by firing squad is nto recognized in the Qur’an is but a furphy! If they prefer to have their collective heads removed by a sword then so be it! For all and sundry wanting to see the sentence carried out as soon as possible then the method of their respective deaths is irrelevant. What matters is that they are executed!

    Patience is a virtue…the time is coming where these three fellas will be meeting their maker and wouldn’t you just love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation!

    In retrospect I have to agree with Rob. Killing these sh*tbags will only glorify their cause. Seeing them rot to their deaths in their cells and then perhaps listening to them talk to Allah in Heaven would perhaps be more rewarding.

    But then again this IS INDONESIA. Suppose their death sentence is commuted to life imprisonment. How long would it take before the trio walk out a free man?

    5 years? 10 years? Given the fact that there is so much sentence reduction for good conduct in jail, Aidil Fitri Chinese New Year Vesak Day (ok maybe not the last 2) it would probably not be a strict deterrent anyway if they’re released like 20 years later…

    Oh the dillemma… Perhaps now I understand why the Indonesian Government is so reluctant to execute the three musketeers nor commute their sentences to life imprisonment… I mean bombers.

    Or are there even more factors?

  5. Patung Says:
    June 25th, 2008 at 9:33 am
    Amrozi is looking for another wife, he says he married his original wife (again) because his children wanted it, but now wants a second wife. Antara
  6. Kid Joe Says:
    July 24th, 2008 at 11:27 am
    Amrozy before you and your bastard friend Imam Samudra died with Execution you should know BALI Have a KARMA For YOU And Your FAMILY and your JIHAD FRIEND Remember this before You Died.
  7. justice4all Says:
    September 17th, 2008 at 10:26 am
    Why is it taking such a long time executing these 3 terrorists.
    Earlier Indonesia had executed three Christian for thier role in the deadly mob in Central Sulawesi .
    As to the place of execution …. why is it that it have to move to outisde of Bali ?

    Since the heinous bombing was carried out in Bali , and the fact that 3 were tried in Bali … it seems
    proper that they be executed in Bali .

    May God have pity over these 3 lost souls .

  8. Bobo Hunter Says:
    October 14th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
    There will be people who will want proof of their death after execution because like me they believe that Indonesia are waiting till these people diminish some what and then fake the execution.

    A new life will be set up for them not with Allah but by the the Govt. and I don’t think they will get the 72 virgins maybe a few rub and tug Whores.

    However there are people set up to find and kill them if this occurs.

  9. Andy Says:
    October 14th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
    Bobo is correct, who can trust a judicial system that is as corrupt as this one. And one represented by majority muslims. They can’t separate their heads from their hearts.

    http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/cpi2008/cpi_2008_table

    you got to look a long way down this chart to see how Indonesia ranks.

  10. ARC Says:
    October 22nd, 2008 at 7:06 pm
    I think that TPM (FPI) and MUI are the cause that behind this long delay, not to mention their connection to Abu Bakar Ba’asyir (the one that always seen Amrozi at the prison, and for information that Ba’asyir also being suspect as the brain of all the bom terror that occur in Indonesia)
    I don’t think that Amrozi cs will be execute because as long as TPM, FPI, MUI, and Ba’asyir still exist the execution will always be on delay.
    You can thinking that i made up all of this, but if you think this carefully you all can understand if you see the different about Amrozi case and Tibo case.
    NOT ONLY that from this evening news they said that there are enough bom that has been found from a terrorist hideout that located in Jakarta and they said that it will going to be used to blow-up the biggest fuel stock located in jakarta and some other place in December.
    All of this proving that terrorist will not be execute and will still exist and multiple in this country as long as them protecting the terrorist from the government.
  11. Nour Says:
    October 27th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
    Education instead of Execution
    26/10/2008
    I begin by praising our Beautiful Creator and sending peace & blessings to our noble prophet Muhammad who was born about 600 years after Jesus was saved by God.
    It is true that the Bali bombings were a catastrophe and a tremendous loss of human lives. It is true that the victims of these nightclub blasts were innocent. And this is a tragedy. But isn’t the loss of human life enough? The truth is we don’t know who actually did it. Where’s the evidence? So is it humane to answer one tragedy of innocents with another? The bombings were not in our hands but this upcoming execution is.
    It is clear that these acts are un-Islamic. In Islam, it is absolutely forbidden, even in a war situation, to kill women, children, elderly, the sick or even cut down trees or destroy buildings. The three brothers (Amrozi, Samudra and Mukhlas) who are planned to be executed next month are being killed for all the wrong reasons. They may have a misconception of how battles should be fought or about the “West” but is that any reason to take their lives? They may lack education or discipline, but is that any reason to end more human life?
    Instead of adding fuel to the fire, isn’t it more reasonable and humane to give these brothers an opportunity to learn and gain knowledge of the reality of Islam and the world in general even if it be in jail? People who have a heart will move in this direction: Education instead of execution. No-one benefits from bloodshed but we will all benefit from mercy & love and our Creator is The Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
    When America went into Iraq, raining down bombs from planes for at least a month, non stop, destroying most of the country, killing thousands of totally innocent people: women, children, elderly, sick etc and obliterating infrastructure, pipelines, electricity, homes, hospitals, prams etc, why didn’t the world see the reality of this oppression, tyranny and unjust behaviour? Why aren’t the criminals who organised this act being called to question? There is no doubt as to who these criminals are and the evidence speaks for itself! And the battle rages on. It has to stop.
    Now.
    The families of the victims may see this planned execution as a way of venting their anger or attain vengeance or God knows what. To them it may be justified. But without evidence or proof, we can’t blindly eliminate more innocence. Given time, these three misguided brothers may come to realise their mistake and repent; who are we to cut them off from this vital human quality? Spilling innocent blood for innocent blood is not the answer. These brothers may show bravado or stubbornness in unrepentance, but wouldn’t you do the same knowing that you’re about to face the firing squad for all the wrong reasons?
  12. DXP Says:
    October 27th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
    Nour said :

    Education instead of execution.

    Nour, if happened one of your family member was in the wrong time & place during the Bali bombing time, will you say the same ?
    Talk is easy & cheap, the more the execution is delayed, it will give ample time to cross after the next election, then it is depend on the new president to give amnesti to grant reduction, maybe Indon government will change the sentence become a life imprisonment ? instead of death penalty ? ha ha ha … dasar Indonesia.

    3 muslim bombers : delay on death penalty
    1 christian killer : immediate death penalty execution, oh my GOD !
    p i l i h k a s i h is not good

  13. Purba Negoro Says:
    October 27th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
    Purba Negoro is hoping the bulets are balnks and Amrozi must be bludgened to death by a very itchy Brimob fresh from rotation in Aceh- where they heroically fight this Islamic infestation from our once glorious Panca Sila nation.

    Nour:
    “Death is a debt we all must pay” ~Euripides.

    And you blaspheme by negating God’s greatest gift on humanity- free will.
    This man, Amrozi- faces his death as a consuequence of HIS choices.
    Amrozi- one of over 220 million souls- chose to kill other people because of his beliefs. He chose that belief system ad chose to harbour his hatred.
    He chose to kill Indonesians and whites regadless- any not conforming to his twisted belief systems of a beautifuol religion hoe chose to distort so he chose a mindset that all were an enemy to him.

    We have enough problems in Indonesia without the Amrozi’s causing needless more.
    All Islamicist are enemy of the Rakyat, Panca Sila and the Republik without exception.
    The Quran is subordinate Republik Indonesia Raya and all apparatus of State- not vice versa.

    Amrozi and all Islamicists are disease-carrying mosquito that must be squashed for the public good.
    The ABRI and the BriMob are the hammerr- a blunt simple tool- but in the masters’ hands what peerless masterpieces we may create.

  14. Patrick Says:
    October 27th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
    PN – A superb posting and I only wish that all Indonesian people could read it. It is moments like these that one must stand back and deliver their crispest salute to you in due admiration and respect. Great stuff man!
  15. Andy Says:
    October 28th, 2008 at 2:12 am
    I agree wholeheartedly Purba…See we can be civil. If only the majority of Indonesians agreed with you then terrorism would no longer be a problem in your country. We know it is only a very small minority who choose to be terrorists. I mean those who will strap bombs to themselves or press the button and kill others. My problem is those who consider themselves mainstream moderate muslims who don’t have the guts to stand up to Amrozi etc becuase they believe to do so is to not support their religion and their people and instead choose to support us (the west). Well these islamo fascists have done immeasurable damage to Indonesia so for us to condemn them makes us better supporters of Indonesia than the Indonesians. Makes sense?

    I do though have doubts that they will be executed. The fact that executions in Indonesia are done in a cover of secrecy at night in the middle of the jungle leads me wonder if it will happen at all or if they will be let loose once out there. The lack of transparency and corruption at all levels of the judicial system gives me no confidence at all.

  16. Andy Says:
    October 28th, 2008 at 2:17 am
    Nour-Where’s the evidence?

    Nour, you are a case in point in my last post. You are an apologist to the Bali bombers. Do you honestly think they didn’t do it? They smiled and laughed about it then said they’d do it again. They admitted it. GET IT!! Have you read a newspaper or watched the news in the last 6 years? You have done your country and people a great disservice by supporting this low life scum.

  17. Nour Says:
    October 28th, 2008 at 11:51 am
    DXP I thank you for your reply. I want to make it clear that those actions are not Islamic. If you have any knowledge of the awesome history of the noble prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings upon him, and his righteous companions, you will realise the true message of Islam and how it deals with our fellow human beings. Here is a short summary on one of the success stories which have shaped human history and is a model for which the people with hearts should reflect upon.

    The Great Conquest

    This is a piece of writing which shows the triumph of good over evil. It was 570 years after Jesus, peace be upon him, was rescued by God. The sun beamed down, with its glorious warmth and bright light on Mekkah, a place plunged in darkness, idolatry, blood feuds, cheating, drunkenness, double dealing, adultery and every sin under the sun. The irony was stunning. The deeds of these ignorant, tribal barbarians was heart-wrenching. Poisoned by their desire for sons, which were tools for war, they buried their newborn girls alive. The heated blood feuds between families and tribes resulted in a viscous cycle of unforgiving revenge, bloody battles and extreme hatred. The situation seemed doomed. But a ray of hope beamed into this dark world. A hero, with all the qualities of a righteous leader, full of understanding, wisdom and a loving, tender heart was born.
    The birth of Muhammad, peace be upon him, was accompanied by a beautiful miracle. Mekkah was under attack from a tyrant intoxicated with power who had amassed an army, including elephants, bent on destroying the house (Ka’ba) which Abraham and his son Ismael, peace be upon them, had built. The Mekkans offered no resistance, relying totally on Allah, glory be to Him, Who sent flocks of birds to throw explosive stones at the invading army which reduced them to nothing but an empty field. Evil was utterly defeated.
    Muhammad, peace be upon him, grew up to be a shepherd, then became a successful tradesman, winning the heart of his rich and beautiful wife-to-be Khadijah, may Allah be pleased with her. Not happy with the condition of his people, who were plunged in darkness by following after their own lusts, Muhammad, pbuh, humbly spent months in the cave nearby, where he met the angel Gabriel, peace be upon him. After becoming the messenger of God, he began to preach that there is only One God, without partner, and that worshipping anything besides Him is futile and will end in severe punishment. His few followers began to endure hardship and torture from the idolaters and unbelievers, who forced them to flee from Mekkah to Medinah (Hijra), leaving behind all of their houses, belongings and business.
    In Medinah, all the forces of truth and righteousness rallied around Muhammad, pbuh and the tiny group of believers slowly grew, like a fragile & tender fruit tree gradually gaining strength, with Muhammad, the slave of Allah, as their leader. But he was more than that. He stood for all humanity, he envied not the wealthy, he made special care to the lowly, he attracted love from all within his reach and his followers built a beautiful community with firm foundations. Not to the liking of the Pagan Mekkans.
    The Pagan Mekkans sent an army of 1000 well equipped soldiers in the attempt to crush Muhammad and his followers by violence and brute force at Badr. Praise be to Allah, the Mekkans were defeated by a mere 313 believers, with the help of angels specially sent by Allah. Next year the Mekkans wanted revenge and the believers suffered a heavy loss. Many battles ensued until Muhammad, pbuh, gathered a huge, overwhelming force and marched to take Mekkah, where the Pagans were caught off guard. He could have exacted revenge but allowed them to go free. Such is the Grace and Mercy of Allah. It was a peaceful takeover and the believers were victorious.

    Nour

    Fulgore3200@hotmail.com

  18. Nour Says:
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
    DXP, I would still say the same even if it was a family member of mine simply because these crimes were committed without true knowledge. What these brothers need is knowledge not bullets.

    PN, death by bludgening is a cruel way to put someone into a state of torture. We humans cannot tolerate pain, so we ask our Kind Lord to ease the pain and suffering of this world and help us achieve happiness, peace and tranquility. To every problem there is definitely a solution. No-one in history has ever reached the perfect balance between faith and politics to the same extent as our noble prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his companions. When they were victorious in a battle, they would look after the prisoners with care. They fed them from their own food. They clothed them from their own clothes. They were allowed to work the free frields. WIth all this kind treatment, the prisoners, who were ardent enemies of Islam to begin with, saw the true Islam in their character and most of them even adopted the faith. Even though there are alot of people who defame prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, it must be realised the the truth will shine brighter than the sun when all the mist has cleared.

    PN, death is not a debt. It is simply part of a process which we have been designed with. It is only a stage. First when God created our father Adam, He took from his back all his descendants, including all of us. Then God made them all testify by saying “Am I not your Lord?” We all agreed. Then we pledged a covenant to our Merciful Creator that we would not worship anything besides Him. And He has sent many prophets and messengers to remind us of this covenant. From Adam to Noah (ark) to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace be upon them ALL.
    Death is the event which takes us from this worldly life to the next world. The next world is the reality. This life is temporary while the next life is forever. Those who reject our Creator and worship anything besides Him will find themselves in trouble. That’s why Hell was made. But those who believe and do good deeds will enjoy the gardens of Heaven for ever. Yes, this is the choice you mentioned which we all have to make.

    It’s your choice.

    Andy, the fact is that these three brothers did have the intention to do something like this but what actually happened was outside their power. Even though they may talk as though they did it, they are only doing so because they think it was something good. Which it isn’t. That is why i am strongly of the opinion that they deserve our sympathy rather than our wrath.

    That is why education is better than execution, you see…

  19. foolosophy Says:
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:22 pm

    3 muslim bombers : delay on death penalty
    1 christian killer : immediate death penalty execution, oh my GOD !
    p i l i h k a s i h is not good

    well the government probably afraid of Islam extremist riots when the amrozi cs death penalty is carried on the Islamic holy month. Christians would pray instead of rioting.

  20. Andy Says:
    October 28th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
    Nour, you are scarier than the Bali bombers really. You want to know why? Because you would probably pass me in the street with a polite nod of the head and I would go about my daily business. Meaning I would be none the wiser for not knowing your true thoughts. And that is you support the Bali bombers. Don’t try and dress it up as though you are Mother Teresa blessing the poor and helpless. You don’t believe they did it and you blame the West. I think you really are brainwashed and are the one in need of education.
  21. Nour Says:
    October 28th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
    Andy, I support justice. Don’t you realise that what happened was beyond their power?

    This is a serious matter. Lives hang in the balance. Yes, I believe that what actually happened surprised and shocked them as well as us. But I do not blame the West.

    Why is it that you have overlooked that atrocities carried out by America and it’s allies in Iraq and Palestine, crimes against humanity, but when it comes to these people, who most likely are innocent you cry for blood? Shouldn’t you direct your anger to those behind the showering of missiles and bombs from planes for at least a month in Iraq rather than support an execution which has no benefit for mankind?

    We have lots to gain by SAVING lives rather than destroying them.

    Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to show these brothers that attacks against innocents is not a good thing, whether it’s a western or eastern country? Imagine they recieve better education in prison for a number of years and then become better people and appologize for their behaviour.

    That would be a triumph and a mercy from our Loving Lord.

  22. Andy Says:
    October 29th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
    Nour, you do not support justice at all. They are guilty, not innocent, a court of muslim Indonesian judges found them so. They smiled and laughed and to this day have no remorse for the innocent lives which were lost on that night.

    Don’t ever compare this to Iraq or Palestine. They are war zones. Military targets are hit by the military. It is an entirely different issue. In Amrozi’s case civilians killed innocent people and in your country the punishment is the death penalty. In my opinion any one who supports them is an enemy of ours too which of course includes you unless you are going to do the smart thing and renounce your treasonous comments. I await your apology to the innocent people (of which 100 odd were muslims) who died on October 12 2002.

  23. Purba Negoro Says:
    October 30th, 2008 at 1:06 am
    Nour,
    Life is a debt- to be repaid with a good life.

    Amrozi had no Right to kill others. But the State has the Right to kill murderers.
    He dies a clean death anyway- so what the problem?

    Better death than his innocent victim- he does not die from bleeding of body parts being torn away, or suffer the torture of dying days later from burns and infections- or the never ending pain of living having lost your loved ones.

    What these tourist and Indonesian ever do to him?
    Nothing.

    If he wish to fight a war- go fight soldier to Iraq or Afghanistan and fight there- not be a coward who kill innocent friendly tourist and Indonesian- then make Islam name filthy by hiding under religion.

    This Amrozi has CHOSEN to forfeit his life in FULL KNOWLEDGE of consequences. Death Penalty- Hukum Mati.
    Furthermore THIS is Republik Nasionalis Indonesia

    NOT

    ISLAMIC Republic Indonesia.

    I underline the importance of this from our Hero Sukarno: “Yes, I am a Muslim, but first [foremost] I am a [Indonesian] Nationalist“.

    Let this insect be squashed and all Islamics along with him- they are a curse and servants of Setan. They are a stain on all us good Muslims.
    God will judge us very favourably for serving His justice upon Amrozi- and sacrificing the few for the greater good of the many and punishing the guilty murderers of innocents.

    PS Thank you Andy and Patrick. All good humans are good people- no matter their race, culture, religion or politics.

  24. Purba Negoro Says:
    October 30th, 2008 at 1:19 am
    Nour,
    the awful injustices of Israel and America will continue- regardless of Amrozi.

    But I think your compassion better served on the deserving and innocents:
    what of the many Muslim injustices on Muslims- what of the Afghani treatment of women, the Saudi treatment of Pakistani and Indonesians- and the increasing arrogance of the Malaysians- this is all something WE can actually stop.
    Our house is not spotless either better we clean it first- it is where we live.

    We should not alienate the good people of the West- who are the majority. Better we win them to our cause.
    Most disagree very much with Israel and USA- but their politico-corporate elites are very greedy and deliberately lie and frighten their people so they are more easy to lead.

    A frightened, misinformed and ignorant person will not question his leaders or their motives- just follow like confused goats chased by the naughty child.

    A confident, informed and accepted person will- and that is our number one priority- not to alienate our allies or create new enemy or fight new fronts- then the spotted goats will unite and chase chase the naughty child away!

    Yes we should save lives- but also be selective in the ones we choose save too. Some are not worth saving- they are liability not an asset.

  25. Purba Negoro Says:
    October 30th, 2008 at 1:33 am
    Andy re the deaths- I am very confident think they will be real. There is too much at stake for him to be allowed to live and the negative fall-out to Indonesia’s prestige/image.

    Everyone is watching this one under the microscope- including investors: the Americans and West- and the newer money: Russians, Koreans, Japanese and the Chinese.
    This will really make or break Indonesia’s improved SBY-era image.
    Then consider the message it send to sleeping secessionist and Islamics movement- Indonesian justice system is a pushover- the nation will erupt from Aceh to Flores.

    There are some rumours are much is property of our dead ‘King’ and his most select loyal men. Imagine the many millions lost alone and their desire for revenge and return to the cash-rich days of 90% occupancies.

    This ‘justice’ delays is merely playing to the ‘human rights’ audience. His fate is sealed and may not come via merciful bullet.
    No- far, far too much at stake. We cannot make a false step- or will be another 10 years before hope of recovery.

  26. Andy Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:49 am
    Here is the latest-http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24579645-5006301,00.html

    Can tell you i’ll have many drinks the day it happens.

  27. Andy Says:
    October 31st, 2008 at 2:49 am
    http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24579645-5006301,00.html
  28. dave evans Says:
    November 2nd, 2008 at 5:02 pm
    I think they should not be executed, but seriously maimed, like hands and feet amputated, then thrown into the street. Good luck in Jakarta. Oh, and “BODOH” tattooed across their foreheads. May they rot in hell.
  29. Morse Says:
    November 4th, 2008 at 6:08 am
    The firing squad it too fast for these bastards….. let them burn slowly at the stake, lets see you smile now u ignorant porper……. the only virgins you’ll find is the ones you murdered to haunt you in the afterlife. Hopefully the same affect will be felt your family and friends as you imposed on others. One thing is for sure, that smile is soon to be wiped of that ignorant face for ever…. sucked in amrozi.
  30. Nour Says:
    November 5th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
    I begin by praising our Merciful Creator and by sending peace and blessings upon our final prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and his companions.

    Andy, I apologise if I have come across as a person who supports injustice because i do not support injustice. Never have. And I never said that what happened on 12 October 2002 is good in any way. So I apologise if it seems that way.

    The point I want to make here is that these acts are totally condemned by Islam. The true example of how a Muslim handles the situation of aggression can be seen in my previous post about “The Great Conquest” which was a victory for all of humanity. The behaviour and character of our noble leader prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings upon him and his companions, is a shining example of how a Muslim should behave against aggressors.

    These acts are clearly unIslamic. Mercy comes first. So wouldn’t it be a victory for humanity if these brothers recieved education and changed their attitude towards this situation and maybe, just maybe, aplologize for their behaviour, whether they did it or not.

    Please consider the fact that, even though they intended to do such an act, what actually happened was beyond their power. We should not be hasty in these matters.

    We all make mistakes but the best of people are those who repent. They may claim they did because they think it’s a good thing. Which it’s not. This clearly shows little knowledge and that’s why we can reform these people and show them a better way.

  31. Pages: « 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 »

    1. Nour Says:
      November 5th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
      Sorry, I just want to make a correction. The last paragraph to my last post should read:

      We all make mistakes but the best of people are those who repent. These brothers may claim that they did it (the bombing) because they think it’s a good thing. Which it’s not. This clearly shows little knowledge and that’s why we can reform these people and show them a better way.

    2. Purba Negoro Says:
      November 5th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
      Nour
      you tell that to your most devout followers raping Indonesian maids and then cutting off their hands in Arabia.
    3. Andy Says:
      November 5th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
      Fair call Nour, while I don’t agree what you say I hail from a great democracy and will always support your right to say it.

      Now you do say that these guys should be educated in the hope that they will repent and become better citizens. Well that’s ok many people throughout the world think the same way.

      I will ask you though, do you feel the same way for the Bali 9 drug traffickers and others who have trafficked narcotics through Indonesia? Hope so for the sake of consistency of argument.

    4. kinch Says:
      November 5th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
      Obviously they have to be removed from the gene pool since one cannot trust the Indonesian justice system (oxymoron I know) to keep them incarcerated for a life sentence… and in any case they seem to be living quite the life behind bars. Best send them off to meet their 72 raisins.

      As for Nour: go get yerself a nice Javanese name or go stick your head where there ain’t no nour.

      Feeling bit tetchy today.

    5. Black Aghori Says:
      November 5th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
      hhhhmmm..

      there is no use in executing them…
      to die by the firing squad is what they really are looking for.
      because in their eyes this means martyrdom.

      there are 2 ways to deal with them:

      1. declare them as mentally ill people and put them in a psychiatric institution. maybe for 40-50 yrs.
      2. tell them that the indonesian soil is to precious to be taintedby their blood. and let them walk out the jail as free men.

    6. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
      November 5th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
      Assalamualaikum Nour and Andy,

      May the hearts of all of you and Andy be purified by the grace of Allah subhana wa ta’ala.

      Nour, you seems very knowledgable in Islam. May I ask what country you are from, and what branch of Islam you followed?

      Andy, the Bali bombers are moslem and they were killing for Allah. Allah is supplying them with 72 virgins each after they are executed. Probably some young boys thrown in as bonus. That is the beauty of Arab’s religion Islam which put all other religion to shame. Nour can confirm this.

      The Bali 9 are not moslem which mean they are destroying lives for their own greed. They should be executed immediately and Allah will burn them in hell.

      Wasalam.

    7. fullmoonflower Says:
      November 6th, 2008 at 12:07 am
      hmmm….
      Amrozi, Imam Samudera, and Ali Ghufron…

      your time will come soon…. )

    8. Andy Says:
      November 6th, 2008 at 2:10 am
      AAB-The Bali 9 are not moslem which mean they are destroying lives for their own greed. They should be executed immediately and Allah will burn them in hell.

      Well no, they didn’t kill anyone. Could they have? We will never know. If they did though they would have killed Australians in Australia and not one Indonesian as they were leaving Denpasar airport on board a flight back home. I thought an Aussie hater like you AAB would give them a medal rather than a few bullets.

      As for Allah, when are you going to stop believing in fairytales? You are getting way too old for this. Do you believe in the gingerbread man too?

    9. Nour Says:
      November 6th, 2008 at 12:05 pm
      I begin by praising our Loving Creator who gave us our faculties of seeing, hearing and hearts (for understanding) and I send peace & blessings upon our noble prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who was born 570 years after Jesus was saved by God.

      Purba Negoro, I thank you for your reply. Sadly, it is true that injustice, tyranny and oppression is plaguing this world on a grand scale. Purba Negoro has shone some light on just one example of these hideous crimes against humanity. And it has to stop. Now.

      But the question is: How? Sure we can shift the blame onto others and complain about the poor state of this world. Sure we can express our anger and outrage. But the solution is much more involved. The solution is offered to us in The Noble Qur’an, which confirms the original books sent to our beloved prophets Moses and Jesus, peace and blessings upon them. The final revelation that we will recieve is The Noble Qur’an. So what does it say?

      “Verily, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what’s within themselves. And if Allah intends a punishment for a people, none can withdraw it. And they have none, besides Him, as a protector.” The Noble Qur’an 13:11

      From this we realise that the solution is found within. When we move in the direction of improving ourselves and discipling our own souls, then we can progress in the right direction. The noble prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, was sent to perfect our character. And the only way to that is first to recognise that there truly is only One True God, who is Lord and Cherisher of all the creation, including the sun, moon,stars, planets, earth, the animals, plants, angels, Jinn and us humans. That includes me and you.

      Ask yourself beneficial questions like: What is the purpose of life? How did this world come to be? What happens after death? Where did I come from? Try to find the answers sincerely, you will begin to see and hear clearly.

      Many prophets were sent to their people to teach this eternal truth: That there is only One True God and that it is He alone that deserves to be worshipped.

      But many people say: My parents were following this path, so I will follow them. Let me ask you. What is 1 + 1? I’m sure you will say 2. Now if your parents tell you that 1 + 1 = 3, would you accept? The truth is the truth and falsehood is falsehood regardless of who tries to twist it. Blindfollowing is a disease that has ruined many in the past, even from the time of Noah, peace be upon him.

      We should use our intelligence and heart to search for truth but we are limited in this because our Lord only guides those whom He, in His infinite Wisdom, chooses. Namely: Those who turn to Him in repentance and ask Him for guidance. We can all improve and change for the better, no doubt. But it takes effort to seek knowledge and wisdom. It’s a life long journey with lots of challenges on the way.

      So Purba Negoro, maybe changing these criminals who are mistreating women in Arabia is beyond our power at the moment, but there is still something more effective that you can do.

    10. Nour Says:
      November 6th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
      Andy, Thank you for your reply.

      I must first admit that I have not been following up on the news. That is a fault that I intend to fix immediatly. But I did hear about those drug smugglers although I do not know the details.

      Firstly, only our Loving Lord knows their true intentions. Harmful drugs are also a disease of this world and must be put a stop to, because in Islam, anything harmful is Haram (forbidden) to consume or practice. For example, drugs, alcohol, gambling, fornication, stealing, killing, backbiting, slandering, fraud etc. All these are sins which are very much punishable by the Hellfire, unless true repentance is practiced, and our Lord is The Most Merciful of those that are merciful.

      But let me point out that the greatest sin, which attracts the greatest punishment is Shirk.

      Shirk, in Arabic means “partnership.”

      When we use this word, Shirk, in Islam, it refers to making partners with Allah, for He has no partners or challengers or rivals. He alone has all power and He is the Sovereign of this entire universe.

      He is the Supreme Creator that created this whole world with the command “Be” and it is. He is the Infinite, Who has no birth or death. He is not restricted by time or space like we are. He is perfect in the true sense of the word. He does not need to sleep or rest. He has the power the raise the dead to life and to give death to life. He is free of all needs. See the Noble Qur’an 2:255

      So how do we make partners with Allah? By holding up equals to Him. By worshipping others along with Him. By making lawful what He has forbidden and making forbidden what He made lawful.

      Andy, these drug smugglers have committed a serious crime but just like Amrozi and the brothers, they deserve education rather than hasty punishment. Mercy should always come first. They deserve a chance to speak and explain and repent/amend. This is our right as humans.

      Because if God was to punish us immediately for our mistakes, He would not leave a single living thing on the face of the earth. (The Noble Quran 35:45).

    11. daniel k Says:
      November 6th, 2008 at 12:31 pm
      Nour, very good comment regarding education and rehabilitation and mercy.

      In regards to shirk – the Christian (who I’m sure you’re alluding to) does not commit shirk. The christian holds no equal to God. God is one.

    12. ET Says:
      November 6th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
      Nour said october 27th, 2008

      When America went into Iraq, raining down bombs from planes for at least a month, non stop, destroying most of the country, killing thousands of totally innocent people: women, children, elderly, sick etc and obliterating infrastructure, pipelines, electricity, homes, hospitals, prams etc, why didn’t the world see the reality of this oppression, tyranny and unjust behaviour?

      The same Nour said October 28th, 2008

      The Mekkans offered no resistance, relying totally on Allah, glory be to Him, Who sent flocks of birds to throw explosive stones at the invading army which reduced them to nothing but an empty field. Evil was utterly defeated.

      For an ET (extra-terrestrial) like me something isn’t quite clear. Aren’t explosive stones something like bombs? Then why was it o.k. for Allah to bomb the Mekkans with explosive stones and wrong when the Americans bombed Iraq??? Is this what earthlings call double standards?

      Please help me out because I am very confused.

    13. Ross Says:
      November 6th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
      Black Aghouri, they don’t truly want martyrdom very much, do they- every weasely excuse for dragging it out is dredged up by the TPM and malignant Islamists across the country…and, it seems, by the regime.
      The latest round of cop-outs for delaying the putting-down of the rabid beasts included the weather (Seriously! TVOne’s reporter on 5th November at midnight gave that as one of the excuses offered from within the jail – how long does the rainy season last? He also reported an urge on somebody’s part to let the killer kaffirs attend Sholat Jumat one last
      time…how many Fridays have they had since they blasted 200 innocents to Kingdom Come? What need have such latter-day satanists of religious solace? Well, maybe a lot ,but remember Idu lFitri and their refusal to mohon ma’af re their victims?)
      We also had sanctimonious hog-wash from the fanatics of a local branch of the MUI to the effect that the executions should be postponed because other convicts were ahead of them in the queue for the firing squad!
      I don’t imagine the other convicts would mind a spot of queue-jumping, but of course these MUI bigots don’t really care whose turn it is. They simply don’t want justice for the young innocents butchered by Islamist trash, and want to prevent the foul trio departing this world for the hell that surely awaits them in the next, if any religion has got it right.

      Okay, the MUI are mediaeval nasties, we all know that….
      …. but why is the regime dilly-dallying? There is no excuse.

      In case readers feel I haven’t a good word to say for anyone involved, I must praise TVOne. They have kept their eye on the ball, with regular and lengthy reports, unlike the Metro morning news – Thursday’s Metro morning gave space to a variety of trivia but no mention of the capital case.
      Surely serious journos of whatever stripe ought to be demanding answers about the dithering?

    14. fullmoonflower Says:
      November 7th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
      hihihihi…

      Today is the D-day…

      I guess in those 3 bastard’s mind, they thought that now 216 virgins has been prepared for them in heaven…

      Wow…!!! There will be a s*x party then -o

    15. Andy Says:
      November 8th, 2008 at 2:44 am
      http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,24620087-5006301,00.html

      not so fast, check out the above link….

      fullmoonflower I wish you were right but i’m getting to the point where I might board a plane to Bali, take the ferry over and do this myself. Honestly we bules are used to dithering and inaction from Indonesians but this takes the cake. We just want them to put a few rounds in an assault rifle and pull the trigger. We’re not asking them to build a nuclear space station or a solar powered bus.

    16. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
      November 8th, 2008 at 10:12 am
      Assalamualaikum Nour,

      With due respect, you are avoiding my question completely? Why may I ask?

      May the blessing of Allah swt be with you.

      Wasalam.

    17. fullmoonflower Says:
      November 8th, 2008 at 10:34 am
      Denmas AAB…

      sometime Islam is confusing…
      just think if this religion is men’s religion, not for women

      if a syahidin (man) will get 72 virgins when he was killed… how about a syahidah (woman)? will she get the same too?

      virgin girls or virgin boys?

    18. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
      November 8th, 2008 at 10:44 am
      @ Andy

      fullmoonflower I wish you were right but i’m getting to the point where I might board a plane to Bali, take the ferry over and do this myself. Honestly we bules are used to dithering and inaction from Indonesians but this takes the cake. We just want them to put a few rounds in an assault rifle and pull the trigger. …

      Where is your human conscience?

      Why are you in a hurry to execute the Bali 9? Only 2 masterminded the drug smuggling ring.

    19. Nick Segar Says:
      November 8th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
      1.)People who buy and take drugs know about the danger. The dealers sell on demand! None of the innocent victims of Ambrozi & Co demanded to be killed!
      2.) Why make such a big fuzz about the execution? Those three are just ordinary killers and the punishment in Indonesia for premeditated killing is the death penalty. So, if all Indonesians are the same under the law – just shoot the killers, forget about them and concentrate on how to improve the social system of the country!
    20. desak Says:
      November 8th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
      at last, Amrozi is scheduled to be executed aroung 1 am on November 9, 2008. Justice will be done. Only idiots wpuldn’t condemn Amrozi’s irresponsible behaviors. Amrozi deserves to be sliced to death not shot! As Indonesian I am so ashemed that Amrozi is an Indonesian, too. but I think his thought was corrupted by the teachings of Arab & Malaysian who don’t want peaceful life among people of different religions. I know many moslems in Indonesia who are love peace like the Christian.
    21. Blag Says:
      November 8th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
      The proper way of Islam execution is blind fold head chopping by an Algojo (Executioner) they should do that.
    22. margot Says:
      November 9th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
      Finally, they’re dead. it’s about time.

      Nour, i dont understand how you can say that it was out of their power, they planned to kill all those innocent people. They deserved to die, although they had an easy way out, not like the 200 victims, 88 of whom were Australians. One of them was a boy my dad taught. He survived the bombing, but about a month later he died from horrific burns. Amrozi and the others didnt have to go through anything like that.

    23. Humphrey Samosir Says:
      November 9th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

      Nour: So how do we make partners with Allah? By holding up equals to Him. By worshipping others along with Him. By making lawful what He has forbidden and making forbidden what He made lawful.

      Quite frankly, this mindset has been facilitating a large bloodshed in the world. Submission toward some beliefs have made them a “judge and jury” in the name of G-d. As well they provide plentiful concoction of “sola scriptura” (only by verses) and “sola fides” (only by faith) to become a conveyor of Mandate from Heaven.

    24. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
      November 10th, 2008 at 12:57 am
      Assalamualaikum Pak Humphrey Samosir

      Nour: So how do we make partners with Allah? By holding up equals to Him. By worshipping others along with Him. By making lawful what He has forbidden and making forbidden what He made lawful.

      Sister Nour is away and as fellow moslem, I will be representing her.

      What sister Nour tried to convey is that Allah subhana wa ta’ala is the only True God. The bloodshed in the world is caused by the jews trying to undermine Islam. Allah swt had warned us not to trust and take them as friends. Hope this is clear.

      Next question, please.

    25. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
      November 10th, 2008 at 1:17 am
      Assalamualaikum mbak margot,

      Finally, they’re dead. it’s about time.

      Nour, i dont understand how you can say that it was out of their power, they planned to kill all those innocent people. They deserved to die, although they had an easy way out, not like the 200 victims, 88 of whom were Australians. One of them was a boy my dad taught. He survived the bombing, but about a month later he died from horrific burns. Amrozi and the others didnt have to go through anything like that.

      Of course it is beyond their power. Allah subhana wa ta’ala planned all this. We as Allah’s slaves have no right to question Him.

      Here is one example what Allah swt had planned and was beyond our prophet.

      When our prophet was caught having an affair with his adopted son’s wife, the news that the prophet violated his own daughter-in-law enraged Madinans. They confronted him.

      Here is the page from the hadith:

      Madinans: “Oh Prophet of Allah , how could you , of all the people an apostle of God, carry out a disgusting and despicable act of sleeping with your own daughter in Law. Rasulullah, your act is an incest which puts the time honored noble arab tradition of “adoption” to shame”.

      Prophet: “To me the only noble and honorable act is to follow Allah’s orders . And Allah was the one who ordered me to acquire Zainab. Here is the aya”:

      Q33.37 “We gave her ( Zaid’s wife ) in marriage to thee, so that there should not be any fault in the believers, touching wives of their adopted sons”.

      Madinans: “It sounds very strange that Allah is so enthusiastic to get us married to our adopted children. Anyways , if that is what Allah wants so be it. But how come you never had a marriage ceremony with Zainab before taking her to bed? Wouldn’t that still be called an adultery?”

      Prophet: “Not at all , because this is beyond me and we shall not question Allah wisdom. Here is the aya:”

      Q33.50: O Prophet, We have made lawful for thee the daughters of thy uncles paternal and aunts paternal, thy uncles maternal and aunts maternal, who have emigrated with thee. And also allowed is any woman believer, if she gives herself to the Prophet and if the Prophet desires her”.

      Hope this is clear for you.

    26. Humphrey Samosir Says:
      November 10th, 2008 at 4:12 pm

      Engku Aluang says: What sister Nour tried to convey is that Allah subhana wa ta’ala is the only True God. The bloodshed in the world is caused by the jews trying to undermine Islam. Allah swt had warned us not to trust and take them as friends. Hope this is clear. Next question, please.

      Engku Aluang,
      I would humbly elaborate that I have deep understanding within this matter. As well I have confronted these school of minds that adopt “Subjected interpretation to become Judge and Jury in the name of Allah” literally in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Pakistan since 2002 till today. (one of them being Muqtada “the Mookie” Al Sadr who was forced to flee to Iran by my men in Battle of Najaf back then). [LOL]

      To be honest, statement as: The bloodshed in the world is caused by the Jews trying to undermine Islam, though it was written within Al-Mushaf was NOT necessary direct order from Allah ta’ala. Remember the manuscript of Hafsa, somewhere was re-written by the Governor of Medina several years after. (ref: Imam Bukhari IX)

      Statement from Cik Nour that says: “By making lawful what He has forbidden and making forbidden what He made lawful”. This statement of which I was pointing it out, cavitate heavily within the word of Allah ta’ala in Holy Koran.

      Amrozi and Co. had put some ayahs to the different level. In example as Surah Al-Baqarah:207, Surah An-Nisaa:74, At-Tauba:20-22 and the very famous ayah as in Surah At-Tauba:111 as an Insurance to fundamentalism.
      Many rewards in Heaven as described in surah Ad-Dukhan, surah At-Tur, surah Al-Waqi’ah are clear.

      Collateral damage within these measures are as described by 5 judges (Maliki, Hambali, Hanafi, Zahiri and Shafi’i) in Jihad al-Talab wal Ibtida. Al-Bayhaqi in Al-Sunan Al-Qubra says:
      Hadits permitting on unintentionally killing of women and children. There is nothing wrong with it. Jihad is not to be halted because of the presence of them.

      These seeds of fundamentalism are performed within thin-ice of what Cik Nour has said.

      Semper Fi,
      HH Samosir
      — end —

    27. Syukry Says:
      November 11th, 2008 at 9:40 am
      It is true when a jihadist die they’ll get their rewards but after the end of the days (Hari Qiamat)..thats the very most special rewards that those people can get but only in ISLAM..Infact even they are dead already but actually they still live alive in another world that we cannot imagine where it was..and for the muslims we know our dignity.. And even what ever u all non-muslims says anything about this Bali Bombers but u wont get anything such very most special things in heaven of yours..coz u all are going to Hell rotten n burn die…so prepare ur self for the next awakening of ur dead.
    28. janma Says:
      November 11th, 2008 at 10:59 am
      Syukry said… with hate in his heart:

      And even what ever u all non-muslims says anything about this Bali Bombers but u wont get anything such very most special things in heaven of yours..coz u all are going to Hell rotten n burn die

      Luckily The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was a little more merciful…… so I don’t know you actually follow Mr. Hate….
      One of the instances of tolerance from the founder of Islam as follows;

      A Letter from the Prophet Muhammad To The Assyrian Christians

      “God has told me in a vision what to do, and I confirm His command by giving my solemn promise to keep this agreement.”

      “To the followers of the Islam I say: Carry out my command, protect and help the Nazarene nation in this country of ours in their own land. Leave their places of worship in peace; help and assist their chief and their priests when in need of help, be it in the mountains, in the desert, on the sea, or at home. Leave all their possessions alone, be it houses or other property, do not destroy anything of their belongings, the followers of Islam shall not harm or molest any of this nation, because the Nazarenes are my subjects, pay tribute to me and will help the Muslims. No tribute, but what is agreed upon, shall be collected from them, their church buildings shall be left as they are, they shall not be altered, their priests shall be permitted to teach and worship in their own way-the Nazarenes have full liberty of worship in their churches and homes. None of their churches shall be torn down, or altered into a mosque, except by the consent and free will of the Nazarenes. If any one disobeys this command, the anger of God and His Prophet shall be upon him.”

      “The tribute paid the Nazarenes shall be used to promote the teachings of Islam and shall be deposited at the treasury of Beth Almal. A common man shall pay one denar (piece of money), but the merchants and people who own mines of gold and silver and are rich shall pay twelve denars. Strangers and people who have no houses or other settled property shall not have taxes levied upon them. If a man inherits property he shall pay a settled sum to the Baitulmal treasury. The Christians are not obliged to make war on the enemies of Islam, but if an enemy attacks the Christians, the Muslims shall not deny their help, but give them horses and weapons, if they need them, and protect them from evils from outside and keep the peace with them. The Christians are not obliged to turn Muslims, until God’s will makes them believers.”

      “The Muslims shall not force Christian women to accept Islam, but if they themselves wish to embrace it, the Muslims shall be kind to them.”

      “If a Christian woman is married to a Muslim and does not want to embrace Islam, she has liberty to worship at her own church according to her own religious belief, and her husband must not treat her unkindly on account of her religion. If any one disobeys this command, he disobeys God and his prophet and will be guilty of a great offense.”

      “If the Nazarenes wish to build a church, their Muslim neighbors shall help them. This shall be done, because the Christians have obeyed us and have come to us and pleaded for peace and mercy.”

      “If there be among the Christians a great and learned man the Muslims shall honor him and not be envious of his greatness.”

      “If any one is unjust and unkind to the Christians he will be guilty of disobeying the Prophet of God.”

      “The Christians should not shelter an enemy of Islam or give him horse, weapon or any other help. If a Muslim is in need the Christian shall for three days and nights be his host and shelter him from his enemies. The Christians shall, furthermore, protect the Mohammedan women and children and not deliver them up to the enemy or expose them to view. If the Nazarenes fail to fulfil these conditions, they have forfeited their right to protection, and the agreement is null and void.”

      “This document shall be intrusted to the Christian chief and head of their church for safe keeping.”

      Here follows the signatures of Muhammad and his foremost Companions:

      “Signatures. Abubakr Zadik Omar Ben Chetab Moavijah Ibn Abi Sofijan Abu Darda Abuzar Abubra Abdula Ibn Masud Abdulah Ibn Abas Hamza Ibn Almulabb Fazl Ibn Abas Zaibar Ibn Aqam Tilha Ibn Abdullah Saad Ben Maaz Saad Ibn Ebadah Sabeh Ibn Kebis Jazid Ibn Sabid Abdullah Ben Jazid Suhail Ibn Mifah Othman Ibn Mazum David Ibn Gijah Abu Alalijah Abdullah Ibn Omar Alqazi Abu Harifah Ibn Azir Ibn Rabiah Ebar Ibn Jaamir Hashim Ibn Azijah Hasan Ibn Zabid Kab Ibn Kab Kab Ibn Malech Jafar Ibn Abu Falib.”
      “The peace of God be over them all! This agreement is written by Moavijah Ben Sofian, according to the dictates of Muhammad , the Messenger of God, in the 4th year of the Hegira in the city of Medina.”

      (This letter was originally found at http://www.atour.com/~history/700/20001011a.html which is down now)

      Additional Links:
      http://www.nestorian.org/a_charter_of_protection.html (in English and Arabic)
      http://www.islamic-paths.org/home/english/Muhammad/Other/Charter_Christians.htm

    29. janma Says:
      November 11th, 2008 at 11:09 am
      Just read the medina charter…. although of course there is a preponderance of ’siding’ believers against unbelievers, there is still a lot in there that protects people of other faiths, including jews and christians… (though *sigh* not atheists….)
    30. Nour Says:
      November 11th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
      Thank you Aluang Anak Bayang for your reply.

      Sorry, I wasn’t ignoring you, I was just very busy recently.

      I heard the tragic news of their execution, may Allah bestow His Rahmat on them.

      To answer your question AAB, I am a BROTHER, I am from Lebanon and I don’t follow any particular group because our prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, never called himself a shi’ite, or Aliwa or hanifi or anything like that. So i am happy to be just Muslim because originally, Islam was one nation but later divided. Our prophet, peace be upon him said that the Jews broke up into 71 sects, the Christians into 72 and the Muslims will be 73 sects. All in the Hellfire except one. And the companions asked, “Which one is that?” He replied, “The path that me and my followers are upon”

      We can get many authentic hadith from the authentic sources.

      If you read my above post about the great conquest, you will see a perfect example of how a true leader handles the situation.

      Pages: « 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 »

      1. Nour Says:
        November 11th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
        Thank you Janma, that post was very illuminating,

        Basically what that means is that the closest two religions are Islam and Christianity. They are the closest in love and affection.

        The noble prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who was born 570 years after our beloved Jesus, peace be upon him, loved to write letters to leaders of other faiths with illuminating instructions as displayed in your post.

        It will be in your interest to read and study the following verses: Surat Al-Hadid (Iron)57:26-29. That is a very beautiful invitation and illuminating sequence of verses which will help you understand more.

        Thank you

      2. Nour Says:
        November 11th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
        Thank you Humphrey Samosir for your reply.

        Let me explain that all the prophets, from the first man, Adam (our father) to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and to our final messenger Muhammad, peace be upon them all, came with the same message; That there is only One True God and that all worship should be directed to Him.

        Have you ever looked around you? The beautiful sun, moon, stars, the earth, trees, mountains, oceans, animals, birds, even the humans etc. Let me ask you, and everyone here: Do you really think that all this appeared by chance or do you think that it shows design and deliberate planning?

        To those people that think there is no creator and that all this beautiful and wonderful world we see around us appeared by chance I ask: Would you, in your sane mind, believe that the computer you are using to view this website just appeared by chance? That the different parts just came together by chance, without a computer engineer or designer? This is impossible and anyone who answered “yes” to that question needs help.

        So look at your own body. All the systems, the bones, blood, muslces, lungs, heart, brain, joints etc work together in harmony. Does it make sense to say that it just happened by chance? Even one cell in the human body is like a small city! Just one cell! And the body has millions of cells.

        Anyway, this is en opportunity for you to explore the truth. Look around and ponder. Ask questions. Because falsehood is falsehood and truth is truth. It will be obvious to those who have hearts that understand and reflect.

      3. Nad Says:
        November 11th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
        Amrozi is gone!
        A muslim country had this courage to get on with the punishment.
        He caused only 202 deaths
        How many christian countries are there to punish the culprits like Bush Blair Howard and Sharon who have cuased millions of deaths in all around muslim countries.
        simple answer is NONE!
        I hope the ignorant lot in this group start to look into their own backyards.
      4. Humphrey Samosir Says:
        November 11th, 2008 at 4:19 pm

        Nad says: Amrozi is gone!
        A muslim country had this courage to get on with the punishment.
        He caused only 202 deaths
        How many christian countries are there to punish the culprits like Bush Blair Howard and Sharon who have cuased millions of deaths in all around muslim countries.
        simple answer is NONE!
        I hope the ignorant lot in this group start to look into their own backyards.

        Quite interesting sir,
        Which muslim country you are referring to? Did you mean Indonesia?
        As I recalled R.I is a muslim country, hardly!
        It has a large population of muslim yes, but not an Islamic theocracy in any way.

        Those three (Bush, Blair and Sharon), none of them are above the law. And as we all have seen, changes has started to progress.

        On the contrary, can you tell me who could drag Mr Osama and the whole nine yard of Terror Inc. to obey the Law? as likewise those Trio above?

        As well those trio have been Booed even by their own countrymen. Now can those Terror Inc. accept the same process if their people wanted a change?

        I also hope that people who accuses other communities as an ignorant, will realize that many brutalities are in their own hands. They need to clean their own backyard as well TWICE as hard.

        Where are the majority of the moderate muslim voices in Indonesia, which are needed to tackle this fundamentalism amongst their own brethren?
        Or perhaps they just chicken-out for they will be classified as Khafirin an their blood are halal to be shed?

        Semper Fi,

      5. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
        November 11th, 2008 at 8:13 pm
        @ Nour

        Have you ever looked around you? The beautiful sun, moon, stars, the earth, trees, mountains, oceans, animals, birds, even the humans etc. Let me ask you, and everyone here: Do you really think that all this appeared by chance or do you think that it shows design and deliberate planning?

        Nour, many of our Indonesian sisters working as maids in the middle eastern countries do not have chance to see the beautiful things around them. They were disrespected, raped and unpaid by moslem claiming to follow in the footstep of Allah subhana wa ta’ala. Do you agree with what they did?

        By the way, do you have sisters?

      6. Andy Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 2:35 am
        Nad-How many christian countries are there to punish the culprits like Bush Blair Howard and Sharon who have cuased millions of deaths in all around muslim countries.
        simple answer is NONE!

        None? Try all. Each and every one of them lost office in their countries. Bush a little different but he would have lost by the most if he had to go to the people again. Iraq has been a frustrating misadventure and not at all supported by the people in the west. The idea was right but the execution was flawed from the outset. So hands up Indonesians who supported the execution of the Bali Bombers? Who thinks what they did was totally wrong? Purba is the only non bule who has spoken up about this issue. The silence from the rest is deafening.

        Oh and by the way Nad, we in the west don’t live in christian countries but secular ones. Get that..

      7. Nad Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 6:37 am
        HI Semper Fi, Andy
        Well good to know that we can communicate in civilised way in this opinion poll.
        Up till January Mr Bush will still occupy his CRIMINAL WHITE HOUSE.
        Is this what SECULAR punishment for a murderer of thousands of innocent women and children. Will he go to any trial in America?? Is there anyone in the world who can file a case against him or other three brutal murderers.
        Usama Bin Laden caused (if he did! (Still debatable)) the death of 3000 lives. and in return Americans have killed or caused the killings of more than 100,000 civilians.
        Have you ever thought why some Muslims support people like Usama, Amrozi and others???
        You will never understand unless you are in a situation like in which you are subject to torture, rape and murder almost on daily basis like Palestinians.
        I live in a western country and unfortunately I have been experiencing this double standard of the west for almost 20 years.
        Yes there are some wonderful people, but how many??? There are people who opposed war in Iraq, but again on what level??
        So far I haven’t seen any one demanding death sentences for Bush, Sharon, Howard, Blair or others involved in the brutality committed against people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine and now Border line of Pakistan.
        I am sure I have made my point clear to you that the problem is not you and I, it is at the top level where they have selling weapons as their mission, killing as their object, and Hypocrisy as their nature.
        Mr Semper you are dead right, we don’t have many Muslim countries left on earth. They all follow their own desires, and this is why you see some disturbing seen across the globe.
        But nevertheless same problems we have in the west as well.
        I hope people like you and I start to preach reality and facts instead of our prejudices and stereotypes.
      8. oigal Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 10:00 am
        Nad,

        Perhaps you can help me out in couple of things here, Are not the majority of deaths in those countries you mentioned carried out by animals with bombs strapped to their bodies, vehicles?

        Is it not a common practice for those who claim to fighting the “infidel” to use the civilian population to hide amongst?

        Surely if all the so-called Mulsim nations you mentioned really wanted to help they could provide AID (after all they are awash with petrodollars) and provide a UN sanctioned and montiored security force until IRAQ and other places achieve a stable democracy and the people could choose what they want, or is there another agenda.

        Palestine, why is it none of the Arab nations who pledged funds to the Palistine People have honoured them? Could it be there is another agenda?

        As a matter of interest, do you know who provides the most Aid to the Palestinians..the west or muslim nations? (its a trick question by the way)

        Surely if the the Muslim world really cared about the Palestinians then nothing Israel or anyone else could do, could stop them being a vibrant and growing nation on the basis of Petro Dollar Aid from other nations (that would seem a fitting revenge). Perhaps a Berlin Airlift..the moneys there, the will is not or have I missed something?

        Perhaps you could advise us on the Aid and assistance being provided to the Muslim people being slaughtered in Dafur..by..oops Muslims (to be fair Arab Muslims, I assume there is a difference?)

        Refresh my memory, who was it who came to the assistance of the Muslim population in Serbia?

        BTW.. If your are going to talk about leaders of nations causing death and pain, might I suggest you worry about things closer to home. Children Starving to death, people forced out of their homes by greed seems to be things that are not confined to the abuse by the west.

        I could be wrong but seems to me, that your black and white view of the world is actually a very very grey colour.

        One thing is certain, killing women and children and the poor bugger just trying to feed his family for the percieved sins or their government (over whom they have no influence) remains the province of the cowardly scum of the earth and for once I hope they do get their just “rewards”

      9. Nour Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 10:02 am
        Hi Aluang Anak Bayang, thank you for your reply,

        No, i don’t agree with any form of tyranny, oppression or taking of peoples rights.

        People often lose sight of one important thing: Resurrection.

        That is the fact that everyone will be raised up to life after they die on the Great Day of Judgement to answer for all that they did in this life.

        All this in front of a Judge Who Sees all things, Hears all things and Knows all things. He knows what we are going to do before we do it or intend to do it. He is closer to you than your own jugular vein (The Noble Quran 50:16).

        Our Merciful Creator is ever watching over all of us, He is witness to all our deeds and utterences.

        Even though evil people may seem to get the upper hand in this life, their run will not last for this life is only temporary.

        “Verily, those who draw into temptation and trials the believers, men and women, and who do not repent, for them will be the torment of Hell and they will burn in the Fire. But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, for them will be gardens beneath which rivers flow. That is the supreme success.” The Noble Quran (85:10-11).

        This is clear and simple.

        It’s your choice, my people.

        And yes, I do have sisters: millions of them.

      10. oigal Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 10:06 am

        I live in a western country and unfortunately I have been experiencing this double standard of the west for almost 20 years.

        I understand your pain Nad, I guess the only option for you is to move to a Muslim Country under sharia law otherwise you would be living and talking a double standard.

      11. jaycee Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 10:16 am
        May the almighty forgives what amrozi has done. It seems like all religions has been hijacked.
        This is a sad day for all.. ppl are fighting not for the betterment of their family wellbeing but instead of whose God is real. Just pure stupidity & ignorance of today’s world.
        For those who can make a different, pls do whatever u can to save humanity.
      12. Cukurungan Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 11:31 am

        As a matter of interest, do you know who provides the most Aid to the Palestinians..the west or muslim nations? (its a trick question by the way)

        The west provide aid to Palestinian is not for the welfare of the Palestinian people but to serve the western own interest to save themselves from nastiness of Jew. Because they have experienced by them self the malice of Jew in their own land and therefore behind the curtain the western people endorsed Mr. Hitler doing his job and to accomplish their mission, the west were relocating the Jew problem to the Palestinian …and now the west got two benefit they save themself from jew while still can enjoy show when the jew have fun with their prey ….he hehe …It is not quite tricky question for us but may be yes if it is for aboriginal and native American

      13. oigal Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 11:41 am
        You are repugnant idiot Chuck of the highest order..and deserve no ones time or effort..so therefore…
      14. Andy Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
        Usama Bin Laden caused (if he did! (Still debatable)) the death of 3000 lives.

        Gee you muslims must not trust one another with outrageous comments like that. A friend of mine (muslim) recently said she doubted that the Bali Bombers were truly guilty. Come on…they have been on TV many times as proud as you can be proclaiming how they did it and that they would do it again. I believe them..Guess I trust the muslim world more than mmmm the muslim world.

      15. Nad Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
        Mr Oigal

        Thanks for opening a can full of worms.
        It seems to me that you are the one who are trying to paint grey over my black and white facts. You are ignoring the facts by not mentioning the weapon and puppet administrators supplies to those so called Muslim countries. Dafur, Somalia, Sudan, Congo, Rwanda etc all are the result of British or American nasty interference.
        Bosnians were the victims of true holocaust, helped only by Mujahideens but very little, because the killers were protected by your so called peacemakers.
        Yes truly Help came but after very very long time ( at a cost of hundreds of thousands of Bosnians ). Please do find out who gives STOLEN PETRO DOLLARS to ISRAEL to bomb Stone throwers or innocent infants, their mothers and others.
        Yes I admit we have some wicked nasty so called Muslims in our ranks but who are causing damage to our cause but that is no where near your masters calibre.
        I don’t know where you got this Idea of me being worried about double standard of western countries. I am here to stand in front of them with all those honest people ( white or back ). This fight will go on till they give up or I depart this world ( not this country )

      16. Nad Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
        Andy dear

        These afghani lots are not that smart to carry out such attacks,
        I am wondering if you have watched any of those conspiracy videos compiled by Non Muslims.
        If not, just to get an idea for what I am talking about you watch them or read the books.
        If this is too difficult for you then think why they haven’t come across with another similar or less effective attack since then.
        Why there are no videos from Usama itself claiming the honour of attacks?
        Don’t worry if this is all too much for you,
        Cheers

      17. Andy Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
        Nad-Why there are no videos from Usama itself claiming the honour of attacks?

        I guess it’s a lack of your people’s courage and conviction. Can’t look the west in the eye and tell us what you think. The reason why you will never again rule the world. And why you prefer to live in the west than wherever you came from. Guess you’re living on social security too. At our expense while you spout your anti-west hatred.

      18. oigal Says:
        November 12th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
        Nad..dearie me it always someone elses fault isn’t it..but you never answered any of the questions but thats always the way isn’t it.

        I never thought you were worried about double standards, you prove you aren’t by your comments and place of abode.

        STOLEN PETRO DOLLARS to ISRAEL to bomb Stone throwers or innocent infants, their mothers and others.

        Yea its tough in Dubai, Saudi down to thier very last petro buck..all been stolen…Stone throwers..Some of them stones seem to be attahced to rockets..but not the point.

        As I said if the ones who yelled the loudest about the Palestine Situation actually put their money were their mouth was, It would not matter what Israel or anyone else did, sheer economics would change the Palestine situation overnight. But the Palestine people, like your self are just deluded into thinking the rest of the Muslim world gives a toss about them. Puppets

        Bosnians were the victims of true holocaust, helped only by Mujahideens but very little, because the killers were protected by your so called peacemakers.

        Yes should have lept in with out UN approval just like…ooops.. or they could have keep waiting for their brothers..

        BTW..do tell who is the support of the regime in Dafur again..ignorance can be bliss..its also dangerous

      19. Nad Says:
        November 13th, 2008 at 4:57 am
        Yea its tough in Dubai, Saudi down to thier very last petro buck..all been stolen…Stone throwers..Some of them stones seem to be attahced to rockets..but not the point.

        and Saudi arabia, and Iraq, and Kuwait, and and…….
        One in thousands may have rocket atached to it…..
        So
        the question still remain unanswered.

        Yes should have lept in with out UN approval just like…ooops.. or they could have keep waiting for their brothers..

        Iraq was without UN approval, why Bosnians and Kosovans need to wait for damn approvals from UN.
        You still havent admitted and felt ashamed and are trying to find an excuse for all those barbaric actions.

        The reason why you will never again rule the world.

        This is what Kuffars ( Non believers ) use to say when God appointed Mohammad PBUH as His prophet. thousands of Kuffars against one Mohammad. and guess what? Islam ruled over one third of the world.
        Andy! stop dreaming, we are in better position now! Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
        face the fact, wake up before your last sleep.
        Islam is here to rule. . Keep your ears, eyes and mind open ( advise )

      20. Andy Says:
        November 13th, 2008 at 9:40 am
        Nad, you lost all credibility when you told us you live in the west. If you really don’t love us leave us ok, simple thing to do. If what you say in the last post is true (that islam is back and we are on the way down) you better jump on the gravy train an go home. Whichever bule country you are in I can guarantee we don’t want you there.
      21. Nad Says:
        November 13th, 2008 at 10:36 am

        Nad, you lost all credibility when you told us you live in the west.

        Typical reply from someone who is avoiding the truth.
        Mr Andy, I want to leave this country but I feel sorry for many wonderful people here, I really want to bring a change here, i.e women status, I want them to learn that women are not sex objects, I want them to learn how Alcohol is poisining their brain, the death toll on my roads in this country, the pub/ club fights, rapes and family breakups caused by this poisinous drink.
        I want them to learn how pornography is ruing their children, I want them to learn not to gamble their lives in their Casinos.
        This is the reason I cant leave. You must leave where ever you are as you are not a help to them at all, in other words you are worthless.
        Please do not rephrase my sentences,
        I said

        Islam is here to rule

      22. Nour Says:
        November 13th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
        Andy, you speak as if you own this country or any other. But let me draw your attention to higher fact which is: that the creator of this world owns everything, including all the countries, including all the buildings, animals, trees etc. Even all the people. Because when you seek knowledge about who gave you your own body shape, hair colour, gender etc, you will, hopefully, feel more humble. Even the fact that not too long ago, you were nothing more than a sperm adn an egg mixed together.

        So please, I hope we can all live together and reach an understanding. This is not my world, or yours, it’s His.

        Nad, your concerns are recognized but the problem goes much more higher. Those things you mentioned are of deep concern but they only harm the person in this life. Shirk harms the person in this life and the next, could be eternally.

      23. justiceseeker Says:
        November 14th, 2008 at 2:18 am
        Nad and Nour, you have both lost your collective minds. Reading Andy’s measured response and then your naive, incohesive drivel makes me shudder to think of the future in muslim countries. If you spoke that way in some parts of the world you would be rightly locked up or at the least investigated. It is dangerous talk and highly uneducated. The Bali bombers killed innocent civilians and the west are fighting islamic extremism, don’t even begin to compare the two. It does you no justice as your English is good. Please use your brains for good not evil. And just for the record i’m Indonesian.
      24. Nad Says:
        November 14th, 2008 at 9:23 am
        If you thinkMuslims are terrorising the world, please read these facts

        Killed by Westerners/ Americans/ Christians/ Jews/ Secular/ or White people (whichever terminology you want to use) = Approx 300,000 (world known truth) * Remember World War 1, 2 and Vietnam War are not included in the total.
        Killed by so called Muslim Terrorists = (3000* + 202 + may be few thousands here and there) * doubtful.
        Let’s do not be confused by fabricated lies from sympathisers of the blood suckers.
        I don’t know how on earth somebody still can be so naïve to consider Muslim terrorist as a danger to the civilised world. Figures are showing just opposite.

        Little History of the trouble spots in the world
        Iraq :
        Iran Iraq war supported by America, Saddam was the puppet; many thousands were the victims of US ammunition.
        Kurdish cleansing; on record again, US provided the chemical to Saddam regime to use it for this cause.
        Gulf war; USA’s favourite puppet acted on their behalf, whole world watch this show just like an ordinary puppet show, who suffered?? Ordinary Muslims. US killed apporx 100,000
        Iraq War/ Weapons of Mass Destruction drama/Oily War, This time Saddam had turned into a bad guy for his Masters. Still acted on their behalf, Iraq was bombed to the Stone Age for something which never existed (WMD). Many thousands innocent civilians were the direct victims of the so called civilised USA and allied brutality; US went to the war against UN resolution. And yet no charges are laid. There is no difference between AlQaeda and US except Alqaeda does it on small scale.
        Falluja Massacre; Hundreds of ordinary human lives were taken by US
        Discovery of US torture cells in Iraq (very civilised way)
        Palestine;
        Once upon a time Palestinians accommodated the Jews in their homeland. No one was accepting them. To pay them back Jews have taken most of the land and almost all the recourses from them. But this is not all, Jews are constantly killing them, Sabra and shatila camp, or Gaza bombing, missile attacks or kidnapping, Israel has breached almost more than 50 resolution passed by our Poor UNO.
        You rarely see this news as a big news in our western media.
        Question: where do they get their money or weapons from? Answer; USA
        Poor Palestinians are not allowed to get any help from any of those puppet countries around them.
        If someone tries to help, they automatically are in the list of MUSLIM TERRORIST. In this situation poor Palestinians tie bomb to their belly’s and throw them in the midst of enemies for the revenge, as soon as this happens they are in the front line of all the western media, (typical double standard Mr Oigal)
        If any one denies the brutality of Israelis and their partners in crimes then that person doesn’t deserve to be known as a human being.
        Above are only the two regions where so called civilised nations are supporting each other to practice their civilised ways and methods.
        There is a long list, e.g Kashmere (Indian forces are busy in Muslims cleansing there) Bosina and Kosovo, (Serbs Christians have made holocaust look very ordinary)
        Chechnya; (massacre by Russian army): Afghanistan; (may be another 100,000 victims of USA and their crime partners brutality). List goes on
        I hope God willing there will be an end to this tyranny of these tyrant rulers.

        If you still not convinced read the figures with references on this website http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqbodycounts.html#LANCET

      25. Andy Says:
        November 14th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
        Nad, military targets and other military personnel don’t count. At a time of war people will be killed. The west regret the killing of any innocent civilians and they are not the prime target. That is where the Bali Bombers were different. They chose ’soft’ targets (i’m using their own words here) in a setting which was not a theatre of war. Nobody who was enjoying a jungle juice or icy cold bintang saw anything coming. I think any Iraqi in a war zone can. And by the way are you including all those killed by Al Qaeda in Iraq as your statistics. You know most of the victims (9/11) excepted of terrorists are actually muslims. Doesn’t that worry you? They don’t even know who they are trying to hit when you think about it. When you say you didn’t include WW1 and WW2 well good. I mean 20,000,000 plus were killed in the second world war but noone would regret for a second that it happened particularly not Indonesians as we saved your ass and paved the way for your independence. All this while liberating the world from Nazis, Fascists and the cruelest of them all-the Japanese.
      26. Humphrey Samosir Says:
        November 14th, 2008 at 6:40 pm

        NAD says: I really want to bring a change here, i.e women status, I want them to learn that women are not sex objects, I want them to learn how Alcohol is poisining their brain, the death toll on my roads in this country, the pub/ club fights, rapes and family breakups caused by this poisinous drink.
        I want them to learn how pornography is ruing their children, I want them to learn not to gamble their lives in their Casinos.

        Mr Nad sir,
        Somewhat is not right in the equation. From your words above, is it modeled after Iran or Taliban? What women status? Put them behind the veil (burqa) and lock them in the house?
        Poisonous drink? Well I presume, all muslimin can utilize this form of alcohol (said as: Khamr) when in Heaven as preached in Al-Mushaf, yes?

        And you said we’re worthless?
        Let’s see… most of immigrant from islamic society can have a sustainment in western world. Western society, law, cultural, and governance have made a room to these immigrant.
        Should we copy “your” system, there will be no Guantanamo prisoners for they will be shot, regardless. No Islamic what so ever, since every immigrant should be converted prior entering the west. No other Holy book except Bible, others are subject to be confiscated and burnt. etc..etc
        Luckily sir, we preserve diversity in all aspect including religion, freedom to pursue of happiness, as well a jewel in the crown, freedom of speech. The one which is by large standard, hardly seen within Islamic world.

        Cheers,

      27. Humphrey Samosir Says:
        November 14th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

        NAD says:Iraq :
        Iran Iraq war supported by America, Saddam was the puppet; many thousands were the victims of US ammunition.
        Kurdish cleansing; on record again, US provided the chemical to Saddam regime to use it for this cause.
        Gulf war; USA’s favourite puppet acted on their behalf, whole world watch this show just like an ordinary puppet show, who suffered?? Ordinary Muslims. US killed apporx 100,000
        Iraq War/ Weapons of Mass Destruction drama/Oily War, This time Saddam had turned into a bad guy for his Masters. Still acted on their behalf, Iraq was bombed to the Stone Age for something which never existed (WMD). Many thousands innocent civilians were the direct victims of the so called civilised USA and allied brutality; US went to the war against UN resolution. And yet no charges are laid. There is no difference between AlQaeda and US except Alqaeda does it on small scale.
        Falluja Massacre; Hundreds of ordinary human lives were taken by US
        Discovery of US torture cells in Iraq (very civilised way)

        Been there and done that 3 times.
        From my point of view, you have missed the point. Islamic hegemony from those region is to make Pax-Islamiah. And ruled by one Caliph. With the wealth of petro dollar, stimulate a question of who will be the ruler. Let alone a clash between sub-sects as Shi’ite, Sunni, Baha’i, Wahhabi, Sufi, Maliki etc. Now when a sect become majority and rule a contry as Iran, Iraq, KSA, etc the chess-play becomes aggregate.
        Every parties wanted to befriend to the Western world to harass others.
        Suppose western world paved a relationship to one of the party, else will said that Islam has been undermined (dzolim).

        Saddam’s Iraq has gone, now the players are Iran+Syrian against KSA+Emirat. Everybody fight amongst their self to become “Sultan Saladin” for the Arab world.

        About WMD, it does exist. thats all I can say.

        Operation Phantom Fury in Fallujah had less civilian casualties (collateral damage) than a suicide-bomb or IED, VBIED blew up several markets with civilians in them.

        Cheers

      28. justiceseeker Says:
        November 15th, 2008 at 2:22 am
        Here here Humphrey, as an Indonesian muslim i’m tired of people like these embarrassing us and making the world look at us as uneducated morons. Some of us, and i’m afraid to say the minority, actually want to learn, work hard and avoid religious conflict. So we can get on with our lives and look the rest of the world in the eye with a sense of pride.

        Please Nad, Nour etc get out or here and give our people our dignity back. The Bali Bombers are not representative of us they are our enemies too. The west on the other hand came to our aid after the tsunami and Yoya earthquake. See who our real friends are?

      29. monyetmerah Says:
        November 15th, 2008 at 4:21 am
        Nad:

        You will never understand unless you are in a situation like in which you are subject to torture, rape and murder almost on daily basis like Palestinians.

        I live in a western country and unfortunately I have been experiencing this double standard of the west for almost 20 years.

        Well then you don’t really understand the situation at all. I suggest you pack your bags and move to Palestine. Then you can start your ranting here.

      30. Andy Says:
        November 15th, 2008 at 11:26 am
        Nad-I want them to learn how pornography is ruing their children

        Actually Nad, it’s funny you say this as I live in the west just like you and in my country it is illegal to buy porn movies unless I subscribe by mail order from Canberra. On the other hand while I was in Jakarta (Capital city of the world’s largest muslim country) I was harrassed daily on the way home from work to buy porn on the street. In full view of muslim women and children. I used to give them a piece of my mind if I was in a bad mood otherwise I would just make a wise comment in Bahasa to them.

        What i’m trying to say is if you really think your mission is in the west and you are staying there under sufferance, surely you can see there are plenty of the same problems amongst your own kind.

    31. 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 »
      1. monyetmerah Says:
        November 15th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
        Hi Andy,

        Nad is a part of one of the biggest problem in Indonesia, HYPOCRISY.

        He lives in a western country yet he condemns the culture.

      2. ET Says:
        November 15th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
        fullmoonflower

        if a syahidin (man) will get 72 virgins when he was killed… how about a syahidah (woman)? will she get the same too?

        virgin girls or virgin boys?

        No, no, no… The syahidah gets none of these. She is rewarded with eternal shopping in heavenly malls and spends the rest of her time in paradisiacal beauty parlours where she gets free mandi lulur for skin-whitening, Botox treatment, and an occasional face- or booblift. Their Visa and Mastercards have no credit limit, their brand-new Nokia’s an unlimited supply of pulsas and the bravest even get a free subscription to Vogue, Cosmopolitan and Kartini.

      3. Cukurungan Says:
        November 16th, 2008 at 6:14 am

        Hi Andy,

        Nad is a part of one of the biggest problem in Indonesia, HYPOCRISY He lives in a western country yet he condemns the culture.

        Every human in this planet has own degree of HYPOCRISY, there are also bunch of bule and chinese who lives in here but also condemns the people and culture in this country. So who is actually the biggest problem in Indonesia …

      4. raden Says:
        November 16th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

        So who is actually the biggest problem in Indonesia …

        The biggest problem remain in the majority who control government funding, policy makers who always turn anything into money .. money & … money.
        The chinese & bule minority as it is said minority, it remains as minority matters, they can commit hypocrisy, spit on our nation but it will not make Indonesia collapse. The main problem we are facing, this nation lack of clear leadership and no law enforcement which are reflection of the majority’s integrity.

        A good citizen is a citizen who creates value & be productive in his works but not to blame on minority. USA never blame on the hispanic minority citizen, China never blame on their bule foreigner PRs, only Malaysia and Indonesia always blame on the chinese minorities .. a similarity of inferiority complex. We must have self dignity attitude and never back down against the minority .. not a good excuses

      5. dragonwall Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 3:36 am

        So who is actually the biggest problem in Indonesia

        Indonesia cannot accept what happened today is the result of their own incompetency and reluctance to change for the better but instead thinking that their failure is the cause caused by the minorities.

        Many had made contributions into this society and rewarded with denials and detestation out of jealusy from a few disgrunted bufoons running around calling out to the Islamic religion to back their action.

        Did the Prophet under any attempt made any remarks that innocent people should be bombed? Do you think their execution to be justifiable? Once they are executed Indonesia will find more and more of their relatives, brothers and sisters secretly working behind the scene for another target, I bet.

        But with people like you, that ancient negriti and that All About Bulshit, it will be the biggest problem for Indonesia.

      6. Nad Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 5:14 am
        SORRY GUYS I WAS AWAY FOR TWO DAYS!
        I KNOW YOU ALL ARE WAITING FOR MY RESPONSE
        SO HERE WE GO

        MR justiceseeker (Keep this kind of justice to youself ONLY)

        If you spoke that way in some parts of the world you would be rightly locked up or at the least investigated. It is dangerous talk and highly uneducated. The Bali bombers killed innocent civilians and the west are fighting islamic extremism,

        Get it right! I AM NOT SUPPORTING BALI OR ANY BOMBERS ( I gave you statistics of people being murdered around the world)
        But you lot are supporting the killings of Millions of innocent muslims around the globe in the name of Military invasion.
        Dont give me crap about muslim terrorism, they were created by you and your ridiculous ideology. and I count those people as western victims as well.
        Mr Andy

        In full view of muslim women and children. I used to give them a piece of my mind if I was in a bad mood otherwise I would just make a wise comment in Bahasa to them.

        Yes We do have problems of porn in all around the world (thanks to west)
        but I like to cure the problem at its origin.

        Nad, military targets and other military personnel don’t count.

        Go and read the defination of terrorism.
        destroying the infrasturcutre, bombing the civilians in the name of an illegal war, so innocent people can suffer and die of hunger and thirst is not terrorism! SADDEST JOKE I HAVE EVER HEARD

        Well then you don’t really understand the situation at all. I suggest you pack your bags and move to Palestine. Then you can start your ranting here.  

        Mr monyetmerah
        Yes you are correct I do not have total understanding as yet, but it doesnt mean that I dont understand the feeling of my brethren over there.
        Obviously you dont! as you belong to that cult who abuse Nazis and but act just like them.
        and by the way Why you guys alway suggest us muslim to leave the west, You ignorant lot! you are like a frog of a well. go and check out the numbers of Muslim in the western countries. YOU WILL GET THE SCHOCK OF YOUR LIFE>

        About WMD, it does exist. thats all I can say.

        Mr Humphrey Samosir
        Sorry I am not gonna waist my time on you!
        Do your researches before you type

      7. NAD Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 5:24 am
        SORRY MR Humphrey Samosir
        CORRECTION!
        WASTE NOT WAIST
      8. monyetmerah Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 7:27 am
        NAD,

        Why you guys alway suggest us muslim to leave the west

        Not all muslims NAD, only the ignorant ones.

        Only the ones who keep on condemning the act of the Western World but still receiving the benefits of living in the West.

        Only the ones who blatantly defend on ones action just because they are of the same religion.

        BTW NAD, you talked about double standard, can I ask why you are not fighting for your brothers and sisters in Darfur? Or how about the starving people in Indonesia?

      9. janma Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 8:26 am

        Mr Andy, I want to leave this country but I feel sorry for many wonderful people here, I really want to bring a change here, i.e women status, I want them to learn that women are not sex objects, I want them to learn how Alcohol is poisining their brain, the death toll on my roads in this country, the pub/ club fights, rapes and family breakups caused by this poisinous drink.
        I want them to learn how pornography is ruing their children, I want them to learn not to gamble their lives in their Casinos.
        This is the reason I cant leave. You must leave where ever you are as you are not a help to them at all, in other words you are worthless.

        So bloody arrogant! Like Australia needs NAD (Not Another Dogmatic Dope) to ‘teach’ them how to live their lives….. pleeeze don’t leave Australia NAD! they need you! sheesh!

      10. monyetmerah Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 8:35 am
        Hi Janma,

        I am sorry that there are people like NAD and Cuk that exist amongst Indonesians.

        BTW, I am trying to propose to raise funds to have people like NAD and Cuk to be sent to Palestine to fight for their so called brothers / sisters, we should only be paying a single journey fare as I believe that they will love to live in a moslem country.

        Interested in joining this good cause?

      11. Nad Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 10:20 am
        HELLO! Wake up monyetmerah
        I dont live in indo********
        Please do generate some funds perhaps you can send it to Palestine yourself to add something good in your list of deeds
        and dont worry about me, I enjoy my existance in this country and not only me, people around me, muslims or non muslims they equally enjoy me being here, and that is why I have lasted here 20 wonderful years of my life.
        I dont know why you guys cant face the truth.
        If you criticise some one be prepare to face critisicm.
        I think all my questions went untouched
        and all my replies went without any scrutiny.
        That is enough for any one to understand the outcome of this topic.
        then thats it for me on this
        Although I must thank Andy, I enjoy your replies, I hope other can join with same pace next time..

        GUYS REMEMBER! MURDER OF A HUMAN BEING IS DISTURBING WHETHER IT IS MUSLIM OR NON MUSLIM.
        THIS IS WHAT YOU ALL NEED TO LEARN BEFORE YOU BECOME THE VICTIME OF SOMEONES BARBARITY.
        PLEASE DO NOT JUSTIFY THE KILLINGS OF INNOCENT THROUGH YOUR IGNORANCE.
        WE DO HAVE DIFFERENT SKIN COLOURS BUT WE ALL CARRY THE SAME COLOUR BLOOD
        BYE FOR NOW!
        MAY GOD KEEP US ON THE RIGHT PATH (AMEEN)

      12. monyetmerah Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 10:27 am
        Hi NAD,

        Please kindly re-read my statements, I am assuming you are Indonesians. Just to give you some information, a person can be called Indonesian even if he does not live in Indonesia.

        As you said murder is murder, so how can you fight for some (just because they share the same religion with you) and not for others? And you said you hate the double standard.

      13. NAD Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 10:36 am
        I couldnt resist in posting this news from today’s SMH newspaper
        Another proof of curent American barbarism.
        “US President-elect Barack Obama says he will shut down the “war on terror” internment camp at Guantanamo Bay and rebuild “America’s moral stature in the world” during a major interview aired on Sunday.”
        http:\\www.smh.com.au
        I hope Barack’s appointment is not only a change in colour.
        cheers
      14. janma Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 10:44 am
        Oh yes… we must protect the rights of terrorists…since they are so respectful of ours…. munafik banget jadi orang!
      15. nad Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 10:45 am
        Little you know about me!
        I do share my sympathy with anyone,
        thats why I mourn for the death of 202 innocent people in your country.
        My heart was bleeding for the victims of 9/11 or spain tragedy or vietnam war,
        This is where you guy dont understand.
        you have this perception that anyone who disclose the evil actions committed by anyone other than Muslims are your enemy.
        I condemn the killers of the above mentioned massacre but do you condemn Americans and their allies for murdering/torturing innocents from muslim world?
        Ball is in your court, if your answer is yes then we both are in the same boat regardless of our faith, colour or race.
      16. Nad Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 10:47 am
        Sorry! above post was towards Mr monyetmerah
      17. janma Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 10:50 am
        NAD…. I don’t like killing and torturing any more than you do….. and actually I don’t agree with the war in Iraq because the invasion was under false pretences…. but on the other hand, if radical Islamic jihadists kill thousands in America with their acts, did they really think America would do nothing? They’d just lie back and take it? Turn the other cheek?
      18. Nad Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 11:04 am

        but on the other hand, if radical Islamic jihadists kill thousands in America with their acts, did they really think America would do nothing? They’d just lie back and take it? Turn the other cheek?

        Dear janma
        Absolutely right!
        Do you think this is all started from that 9/11
        what about Israel and 50+ UN resolution, Sabirah Shateelah camp through US Weapons and support. history of terror doesnt start from september the 11th.
        Lets not talk about who started this, I am sure none of us can be convinced.
        Injustices of the world will never finish if we continue talking about who did it first.
        Lets preach the solution.
        Preach love as the Prophet of God Almighty did,
        to condemn US or west for their participation in killing civillians is preaching love.
        denying is Hypocracy
        same goes to terrorists as well.
        I hope this make sense to you!
        cheers
        NAD

      19. janma Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 11:34 am
        Civilians are not targets of the US. Civilians are the targets of terroists… if you can so loudly condemn the US, why not as loud to condemn the terrorists? Why only a luke warm, “yes, I dont’ agree with terrorists either” statement?
        Plus you are out of bounds when you say ‘Millions of innocent Muslims’ killed by the US. Simply not true.
      20. stupid guy Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 11:58 am

        what about Israel and 50+ UN resolution, Sabirah Shateelah camp through US Weapons and support. history of terror doesnt start from september the 11th.
        Lets not talk about who started this, I am sure none of us can be convinced.

        Let’s talk about this

        Battle to occupy Israel, doesn’t start from Israel and 50+ UN resolution either,

        Long time ago even when Jesus wasn’t born yet, the Jews had live at Israel. The exile of Jews to Babylon was on 586 BC when there was an invasion by Nebuchadnezzar. And a lot of war happened after, until now

        I think that is the motivation for Zionism. The question is who have the most right to master and rule the land of Israel? Is it Christian, Islam or Jewish? any suggestion?

        BTW i am not one of them (neither Christian, Islam or Jew)

      21. Andy Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
        Nad-Yes We do have problems of porn in all around the world (thanks to west)
        but I like to cure the problem at its origin.

        How do you know here it originated from Nad and seriously what kind of people are you to meekly follow us in this way. Nobody puts a gun to your heads and makes you watch porn, Muslims do it because they like it as much as anyone else. They also have hormones and genitals Nad and unless they don’t work properly they are going to crave whatever any other race or religion does. As I said the marekt in Jakarta is huge and much bigger than any i’ve seen in the west. I still remember the hypocrisy when your people were railing against the western ‘Playboy’ magaizine but allowed your own to sell hardcore porn in the streets. Typical!

      22. Nad Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
        Just simply do the body counts. directly or indirectly
        You will know!
        I have posted a website earlier which keeps the record of US attrocities around the globe.
        It cant be exact as it was a rough guess but it will not be too short either.
        Iraq has claimed big number of casualities by US and their allied criminals

        “How many Iraqi citizens have died in this war? I would say 30,000, more or less, have died as a result of the initial incursion and the ongoing violence against Iraqis.”
        George W. Bush, 2005-12-14.

        This was to take revenge of 3000 Us civillians.
        “The Iraqi ministry of Health estimates 151,000 civilians killed as of 2006-11-09. ”
        These are rough estimated total casualities for Iraq.
        I would say the damage was/is much more. aftermath of wars are more dreadful. homeless people, diseases, shortage of food and water etc. and very hard to get truth out to the people like yourself as Arthur Ponsobny said

        “When war is declared, truth is the first casualty.”
        ~ Arthur Ponsonby

      23. monyetmerah Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
        Nad,

        I condemn any act of violence towards human rights.

        Unfortunately currently most of these terrorist acts are done by Moslems, which brings down the name of Moslems.

        The Americans have their own agenda and have always try to be World Police, I never agree with their policy of invading Iraq (shame on you Mr. Bush).

        My problem is that you seems to be leaning towards Moslems just for the sake of them sharing the same religion as you. That is why I am questioning your standard. If I am wrong then I apologise.

        You said that you want to cure the Western world of their poisons (alcohol, women as sex objects etc). Do you live in a cave? Don’t you get information that these problems are not only problems in the West but also problems in the Middle Eastern countries. Again I question your standard, you seems to only want to see what you want to see, hear what you want to hear. In that case there is no reason for me talking to you. There is more to life than wasting my time talking to someone with questionable standards.

      24. Nad Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
        Hi stupid guy ( name suits you ) Ha ha just kidding

        Long time ago even when Jesus wasn’t born yet, the Jews had live at Israel. The exile of Jews to Babylon was on 586 BC when there was an invasion by Nebuchadnezzar. And a lot of war happened after, until now

        Does this mean We new australians should be kicked out from this land of Aboriginals as they had it first???

      25. stupid guy Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 12:42 pm

        Does this mean We new australians should be kicked out from this land of Aboriginals as they had it first???

        Maybe, if they have the power to do so,

        Don’t ask me back, do you feel that you should leave Australia, if there is Aboriginals want their land back?

        Similar question to the Jews on the land of Palestine, do they have to be kicked out from the land, since Palestine own the land before the invasion?

        To be consistent, you have to answer the same for both questions

        BTW it is just a thought, i am not justifying anything!

      26. Nad Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
        Mr Andy
        You are doing exactly the same what western media does.

        You said that you want to cure the Western world of their poisons (alcohol, women as sex objects etc).

        Here is what I actually said

        Mr Andy, I want to leave this country but I feel sorry for many wonderful people here, I really want to bring a change here, i.e women status, I want them to learn that women are not sex objects, I want them to learn how Alcohol is poisining their brain, the death toll on my roads in this country, the pub/ club fights, rapes and family breakups caused by this poisinous drink.

        I never took the responsibility of entire western world or beyond that
        You are (persumebly) in Indonesia, take resposibility of Indonesia.
        by the way it is not what I say, visit us in this beautiful part of the world, read the newspaper here you will learn what I said wasnt based on being spiteful.
        I love this country hense the problem of this country is my problem.
        Newspaper claims we have Alcohol problems, prostitution problems, immorality, pornography, sexual abuses from Churches to the schools (everywhere)
        Being a citizen of Australia it is my responsibilty to find a solution of this problem.
        Do you get it now?? Are we on common plateform now??? or you still wanna carry on with you childish behaviour.
        and the last one being I muslim I do sympathise with Muslims and this is natural.
        But it doesnt make me hate others, and guess what this is what Islam teaches us.
        Cheers

      27. Cukurungan Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 1:00 pm

        BTW, I am trying to propose to raise funds to have people like NAD and Cuk to be sent to Palestine to fight for their so called brothers / sisters, we should only be paying a single journey fare as I believe that they will love to live in a moslem country.

        Interested in joining this good cause?

        Dear Monyetmiskin,

        Ha ha ha…..kalo masih miskin saja nggak usah banyak ngomong lah bikin malu saja…..masak cuman ongkos beli airticket saja harus patungan..

        Palestine does not need my help, they have enough men for waging war forever with Jews while I have more important business in here … to remind all my people never trust bule because the bule always offer something that never work in their own country

      28. Nour Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
        To stupid guy,

        It is good that you mention the people of Moses and Harun. Here is some history of these Children of Israel.

        In Egypt, the Children of Israel (Israel = Jacob, the father of 12 men, including Joseph and Benjamin) were being tortured by Pharoah, who slew their newborn sons and let their womenfolk live (The Noble Quran 14:5-8).

        They prayed to God for Him to send a savior to them, and that was the prophet Moses, peace be upon him, who was saved from this massacre by a miracle (Allah commanded the mother of Moses to put him into the river, (The Noble Quran 20:37-40)).

        Moses, peace be upon him, spoke to Allah many times, including the time when Moses was travelling with his family and saw the burning bush (The Noble Quran 20:9-16). In these vereses, Allah, The Praiseworthy, says to Moses: “Verily, I am Allah, there is no god besides Me, so worship Me and establish the prayer for My rememberence.”

        So the question is: On what religion was Moses, peace be upon him? What religion were all of the prophets? Did they have different religions or did they all come with the same message?

        It is clear that Moses, peace be upon him, believed in the One True God, The Creator. And so did all the prophets before and after him. Lets take a look at the major ones.

        Allah, The Most Merciful, says about Noah, peace be upon him:

        “Verily we sent Noah to his people, (with this message): “I am a clear warner to you. That you worship none but Allah. I fear for you the punsihament of a grievious Day” The Noble Quran 11:25-26.

        Allah says about Abraham, peace be upon him:

        Abraham says about the idols that his people used to worship: “For they are enemies to me, not so the Lord of the Worlds (Allah).

        It is He Who created me and provides for me guidance.

        And it is He who feeds me and gives me drink.

        And when I am sick, it is He who heals me.

        And it is He Who will cause me to die then give me life.

        And it is He Who i pray will forgive me my sins on the Day of Judgement.” The Noble Quran 26:75-82

        Allah says about Moses, peace be upon him:

        It becomes apparent in this dialogue between Pharoah and Moses.

        When Pharoah asks him, “Who is the Lord and Cherisher of all the worlds?” Moses replies, “He is the Lord of the heavens and earth, if you want to be certain”

        “He is your Lord and the Lord of your fathers from of old.”

        Moses continues, “Lord of the east and west and all that is in between if only you had sense.” The Noble Quran 26:23-28

        Allah says about Jesus, peace be upon him:

        When Mary, may Allah be pleased with her, delivered Jesus and went to her people, they accused her of evil. Mary didn’t speak to defend herself, she merely pointed at the baby Jesus, peace be upon him. And he said:

        “I am indeed the servant of Allah, He has given me the book and made me a prophet. He has made me blessed whereever I am and has commanded me to establish prayer and give charity. He has made me righteous to my mother and has not made me overbearing, miserable. And peace is upon me the day I was born, the day that I die and the Day I am resurrected.” The Noble Quran 19:30-33

        And ofcourse, the last prophet Muhammad, who was born 571 years after Jesus came with the same message:

        “And your God is One God, there is no God besides Him: The Most Gracious, Most Merciful” The Noble Quran 2:163

        As you can see, this is all consistent. They all came with the same message and were all brothers. To teach mankind about our Loving and Merciful Creator. This is all consistent because it is the work of The All-Mighty, The Paiseworthy.

      29. stupid guy Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
        @Nour

        From Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, they all came with the same message,

        What if sometime, there is another prophet say the same message and claim that he is the last prophet with another religion named XYZ with another holy book which consist the same message which copied, pasted and modified from the all holy books which came before it and he will say, O Human, this is all consistent

        So can we say that all human from the beginning embrace the same religion : XYZ?

        How can you convince others to embrace a religion with that story?

      30. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
        November 17th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
        @ Nour

        Moses, Harun, Noah, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammad. Who are these Middle-Eastern dudes by the way? As a concerned Indonesian, all I know is that Middle Eastern Mohammadans sexually and physically abused our maids. The more Mohammadan they become, the more sadistic they are. They are our Enemy No. 1

        You should try preaching to your own kind first.

        Wasalam.1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 »

        1. monyetmerah Says:
          November 17th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
          Cuk,

          Palestine does not need my help, they have enough men for waging war forever with Jews while I have more important business in here … to remind all my people never trust bule because the bule always offer something that never work in their own country

          All your people? Ha, don’t make me laugh.

          I am planning to send you there so the Palestinians have something to laugh about.

        2. HH Samosir Says:
          November 17th, 2008 at 4:42 pm

          NAD says: Mr Humphrey Samosir
          Sorry I am not gonna waste my time on you!
          Do your researches before you type

          Mr NAD sir,

          Should I need to do further research, when my men under my command from element forces of 1st Marine Div have found the largest cache of Bio-Chem (I don’t have to be specific) in Sammara, Iraq?
          I’ve got 1xAfghan and 3xIraq deployments under my belt, I can see Iraq as back of my hand at any given time.

          Now… if you could tell me please, what kind of textbook should I pursue further to acquire such knowledge as you have mentioned?

          Or Should any media mogul DARE to report the whole truth? So at least people have some qualified pointer from both sides.
          Whoa.. this would have been a good example of “licking one’s own spit” case.

          WMD in Iraq was not necessarily related only to nuclear capability. Bio and Chem are also under direction of UN resolution, classified as WMD.

          ps: Salam hangat bagi rekan-rekan Indonesia dimana saja berada.

        3. fullmoonflower Says:
          November 17th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
          @ ET

          No, no, no… The syahidah gets none of these. She is rewarded with eternal shopping in heavenly malls and spends the rest of her time in paradisiacal beauty parlours where she gets free mandi lulur for skin-whitening, Botox treatment, and an occasional face- or booblift. Their Visa and Mastercards have no credit limit, their brand-new Nokia’s an unlimited supply of pulsas and the bravest even get a free subscription to Vogue, Cosmopolitan and Kartini.

          wow… nice offer!!! D

          but Amrozi has been dead… whereas he was a bomb expert… (
          I cannot learn from him anymore…

          Would you like to teach me, my sweet ET? ;)
          maybe then we both can make a C4 of peace…. hehehe

        4. ET Says:
          November 17th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
          fullmoonflower

          No, no, no. No one who is blessed with a name like you has to sacrifice herself as a syahidah and die in the line of fire like those three poor brothers, peace be upon them.

          You, fullmoonflower, are destined to join the ranks of those fullbreasted maiden houri’s whio dwell in the gardens of janna for the delight of those brave warriors who gave their life for the establishment of the Southeast Asian Caliphate and who were unjustly punished for the collateral damage that took the life of a few hundred kaffir on an island that bears the resemblance of a new Sodom and Gomorrah.

          BTW, what’s your cup size?

        5. fullmoonflower Says:
          November 17th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
          @ ET

          BTW, what’s your cup size?

          Perhaps same size as your mom’s whence you’re a suckler. BTW, what is your size? ET = Extra Tiny? (just kidding)…..

        6. Nad Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 5:21 am
          Mr HH Samosir
          About that chemical, You will find that much in every country of the world.
          Probably that was left over from the US supply to kill KURDISH REBELS
          I love how you come up with something totally illogical
          the people they went to look for WMD ( Weapons of Mass Destruction )
          couldnt find any thing which they could have related to their initial claims.
          READ READ your own Journalist, forget about eastern or any non white.
          you are one of those arrogant supplier of fabrication who are decieving mojority of the peace loving people of the west.

          Sorry I missed your previous fabrication.

          Simple answer to your nonsence one by one

          Guantanamo Bay
          Newly elected President of US has Vowed to close it down to uplift his nations morality.
          (lucky we do not have Guantanamo) I rather them to be shot.
          Amrozi and his associated has been done with, doest it show you the picture.
          How many of Bushes, Howards, Milasewiches, Sharons, naten yahoos, or Israeli generals, ETC have been executed for there worst crimes against humanities.

          since every immigrant should be converted prior entering the west. No other Holy book except Bible, others are subject to be confiscated and burnt. etc..etc

          Have you been converted to Islam, or any other people living in Indonesia, as Indonesia holds the largest Muslim population in the world, hense you are contradicting yourself here,
          India was ruled by Muslims for centuries and still holds more hindus then Muslims
          Spain was ruled by Muslims for many centuries again and we all know there is hardly any muslims left. Did we convert all of them or kill all of them

          Infact in the history of mankind the only time they lived peacefully when Muslims were ruling the world.

          They all co-exist peacefully, there were no greed involved, no invasions, even Christians and other faith were calling muslim to rule over them so they can get rid of their own tyrant rulers.

          No other Holy book except Bible, others are subject to be confiscated and burnt. etc..etc

          Hindus have done it in India, Americans have done it again and again, there are ignorant people all across the globe, if an incident happen in muslim world that always become a big story.
          I use to live in pakistan from 1971 till 1989 Never seen or heard any thing like this.
          actually it is forbidden in ISLAM to burn or desrespect any holy book.
          So stop Bullying people with your lies!

          Luckily sir, we preserve diversity in all aspect including religion, freedom to pursue of happiness, as well a jewel in the crown, freedom of speech. The one which is by large standard, hardly seen within Islamic world.

          You are right there some western countries like mine has given us this oppertunity to practice my religion, same as many muslim countries where all the other religions can practice their faith.
          Freedom of speech????
          Once upon a time! this would have been correct statement but not now
          as soon as you say some thing agains US or support the victims of their barbaric actions,
          you become the odd one
          as your master GW BUSH said “you are with US or with the Terrorists”
          to my understanding US is thousand time worst in spreading terror.
          So where is my freedom of speech, I am left with no choice.
          I have sent many mails to newspapers here but they publish only what they like.
          is this what freedom of speech about?
          and one last thing

          “WE NEVER CLAIM THAT WE HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES AS WELL”

          most of them are dictators, Puppets, acting in the interests of their masters.
          This is another chapter and I dont think I want to discuss this now.

        7. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 7:26 am
          @ Nad

          You are a goose.

          The invasion of Iraq was not only a big mistake but very wrong in the eyes of every world citizens. It was Bush’s personal vendetta against Sadam and the Americans are paying a heavy price for this disaster. The US should have bombarded and exited Afghanistan after getting rid of the islamists, instead they are now leaving Iraq in body bags.

          If a black man was not voted in, America is doomed. At least Obama can lead their diggers away and save face for whiteys. The war in Iraq is unwinnable and no moslem would want to listen to any whitey in office. The islamists war can be easily won if whiteys had consulted with us and follow Javanese wisdom – ‘If you fight fire with fire, you are creating a bigger mess.’

        8. Nad Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 7:34 am
          Mr Aluang Anak Bayang
          I like that nick!
          Goose

          According to your statement Bush should be prosecuted and senteced to death for murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men women children plus his own country men!
          Can you Javanese Help newly elected Black man to get the justice done?

          cheers

        9. HH Samosir Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 7:51 am

          NAD says: About that chemical, You will find that much in every country of the world. Probably that was left over from the US supply to kill KURDISH REBELS
          I love how you come up with something totally illogical

          Mr Nad sir,
          First of all, you are using wrong picture.
          It was Iran that had relation to US back at that time. Iraq become “ally” sort of Saddam wants to get rid of Ayatollah Khomeini, by which was the enemy to US as well. So, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The dictum serves well to become mutual.

          NAD says: Amrozi and his associated has been done with, doest it show you the picture. How many of Bushes, Howards, Milasewiches, Sharons, naten yahoos, or Israeli generals, ETC have been executed for there worst crimes against humanities.

          To me, those condition was not “apple to apple” comparison. You clearly missed the essence a fine line between complete practical Jihhad and politics. It is on the seed of minds. I don’t endorse those politician as correct, nor hail the jihaddists that oppose them. In as much of collective approach, you should not compare those politicians to Amrozi and Terror Inc.
          Why, becasue those politician represents something real, while Amrozi represent entity or entities. Real, because you could point the finger to them. Now.. terror Inc, could you point them as what-a-who’s representation?

          NAD says: Have you been converted to Islam, or any other people living in Indonesia, as Indonesia holds the largest Muslim population in the world, hense you are contradicting yourself here.

          You got me wrong there, Indonesia IS NOT Islamic country as in Iran and many of gulf states. Quite contrary, have you ever resides in KSA or Syria. What do they do if they might seen kafiruun? (non-Islamic specially Infedels from great satan nation).
          Or if this tourist from “the great satan’s nation” brought his holy book, walk into the custom dept in an airport?
          Am I contradicting here? you might see the matter exist quite more often sir.

          NAD says: Infact in the history of mankind the only time they lived peacefully when Muslims were ruling the world

          Sure, by paying Dhimmis and submission as a slave. As well which “muslims” you are refering to? Sunni, Shi’ah, Ismaili, Sufi, Salafi, Nazari, Karajites, Ahmadyya, Baha’i, and the whole nine yard. You need to be specific here, because even between their brethren they are prone to kill each other. CMIIW.
          Even in the hand of some secular Ummayad and couples of Shi’ah scholars that would bring vilayat al Fiqih (renaisance in Islamic era), only resulted with crumble to this society. Since every partisan wanted to be Caliphate after Muhammad by FORCE.
          I am not trying to be an ignorant, but please do not generalize history from “his-story”. With respect to your wording, for the cultured and educated people, this would be an amusement and quite entertaining.

          NAD says: actually it is forbidden in ISLAM to burn or desrespect any holy book. So stop Bullying people with your lies!

          Contradicting your self here, or simply gone blind because of fellow muslimin?
          As I said, try to go to any other Islamic world where some entities are trying to uphold the law of Syariah in conjunction to self appoint Allah’s law posse. Look even harder the reality surround you. And tell me right in the eye, if I was wrong and tell a lies.
          Pakistan back then was in a good climate. See yourself nowadays, in Pakhia, Peshawar, Dhar Ishmail khan, Arandu etc

          NAD says: Once upon a time! this would have been correct statement but not now as soon as you say some thing agains US or support the victims of their barbaric actions, you become the odd one as your master GW BUSH said “you are with US or with the Terrorists”
          to my understanding US is thousand time worst in spreading terror.
          So where is my freedom of speech, I am left with no choice.
          I have sent many mails to newspapers here but they publish only what they like.
          is this what freedom of speech about?
          and one last thing

          “WE NEVER CLAIM THAT WE HAVE FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES AS WELL”

          Now, to my sense you’ve missed the whole picture here. Please read and understand this out loud, simple matter, Iran vs Iraq.

          When US make friend to Iran, Iraq says: You are undermining Islam !!
          on the other hand when US make friend to Iraq, simply Iran says: You are undermining Islam. !!
          When US doesn’t want to make friend to either of them, the chorus will cry louder: You are undermining Islam !!
          So if you are US, to which BABIES do you want to give the milk?

          I hope you do understand this core matter to understand in depth before you make such exclamation.

          Freedom of speech? Many muslim scholars think that based on ferses that related to:
          “Says: Lakum dinakum waliyadin” which means to you your belief, my belief is mine, is an option to choose within beliefs. Sufi schoolar further says that this is the core basic of freedom of speech within Islam.

          Now, related to your statement again, makes me wonder.
          Either you don’t know what you are talking about, or those schoolar are simply retarded oxymoron.

          I don’t see why that matters are not related to the whole discussion, as you are trying to avoid.

          Cheers,

        10. ET Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 9:44 am
          fullmoonflower

          Perhaps same size as your mom’s whence you’re a suckler.

          I need pictures for proof.

          BTW, what is your size? ET = Extra Tiny?

          No, no, no… ET = Ekstra Tenaga.

        11. ET Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 10:14 am
          Nad

          Can you Javanese Help newly elected Black man to get the justice done?

          Obama has been elected by a majority of Whites. Are the Blacks now going to declare war to the Whites?

          Nad, you are not only a goose but also a gander.

        12. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 11:08 am
          @ Nad

          Mr Aluang Anak Bayang
          I like that nick!
          Goose

          I am using my real name, last 3 of 5 words. You are hiding behind a pen name.

          According to your statement Bush should be prosecuted and senteced to death for murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqi men women children plus his own country men!

          As an asian, we don’t snoop on others’ privacy. It is up to you people to deal with him. I am just an eye opener for you as you claimed to be of Indonesian heritage. Neither do I side with the islamists. They deserve what they get. The moslem arabs and newly Anglo converts are Indonesian Enemy no. 1.

          Can you Javanese Help newly elected Black man to get the justice done?

          cheers

          If he asked, yes )

        13. Nad Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 11:57 am
          Mr HH Samosir
          Sorry but I have to admit that after reading your Load of Crap I was shaken with your convincing lies upon lies.
          without going into details
          LIE NO 1On record US flamed the war by supporting the culprits as it was in their benifite to ignite that part of the world.
          and by the way read my quotation and read your justification and crying out loud, you will see to yourself that how stupid and ignorant your remarks were!

          LIE NO 2

          To me, those condition was not “apple to apple” comparison

          To you may be, as I said you sound worst than those culprits.
          but peace loving human being cannot tollerate the killing of millions of fellow human beings on the basis of illegal wars.

          politician represents something real,

          yeah they reresent REAL terrorism.

          LIE NO 3

          Indonesia is not Islamic country or Muslim country???????????
          then there is no Islamic country in the world. as none of them practice what Islam teaches.

          The only incident happened in Pakistan as a result of anti west protest around 9/11 or Iraq war by some loosers.
          Whole muslim Ummah condemned the attacks
          Alhamdulillah we have people from all different walks of life living in Pakistan and after all this what west is doing to muslims they are living without any fear of being thrown out or critisiced unlike America where hatred crime increase in big number agains Muslims after 9/11
          So this was another RUBBISH thrown towards the bin of reality by you Mr.
          LIE NO 3

          Sure, by paying Dhimmis and submission as a slave. As well which “muslims” you are refering to? Sunni, Shi’ah, Ismaili, Sufi, Salafi, Nazari, Karajites, Ahmadyya, Baha’i, and the whole nine yard. You need to be specific here, because even between their brethren they are prone to kill each other.

          There are many other lunatics like you, on the net propagating this negativity about ISLAM.
          and FYI It hasnt done any damage to Islam whatsoever as Islam still is the fastest growing faith and most practicing religion in the world.
          Dont you pay tax, I pay tax here in Australia and I enjoy the benifites here.
          If this is what you referring to, then I give up on you after this post.
          There were no Shia or Sunni or any other sects existed in the time when muslim ruled over the world. we were united, ONE UMMAH (NATION) Britishers were not invented to Break us up into UAE,KUWAIT,Bahrain,IRAN,IRaq etc.

          LIE NO 4

          have you ever resides in KSA or Syria. What do they do if they might seen kafiruun?

          Another example of your ignorance, one need to go there and see how many christians living there in peace and harmony unless the peace is shattered by the Zionists.

          LIE NO 5
          blockquote>Contradicting your self here, or simply gone blind because of fellow muslimin?
          As I said, try to go to any other Islamic world where some entities are trying to uphold the law of Syariah in conjunction to self appoint Allah’s law posse.

          I have explained earlier there are less incidents of desrespecting holy books in so called muslim coutries then in one Guantanamo itself.

          RUBBISH NO 6

          When US make friend to Iran, Iraq says: You are undermining Islam !!
          on the other hand when US make friend to Iraq, simply Iran says: You are undermining Islam. !!
          When US doesn’t want to make friend to either of them, the chorus will cry louder: You are undermining Islam !!
          So if you are US, to which BABIES do you want to give the milk?

          Doesnt make sense!

          U R lost soul, US and Zionist are our enemy NO 1
          We can not comprehend making them our friend, yes they are friends with our US TAG leaders.

          TO ALL YOU FELLOWS, TRUTH IS HARD TO COME BY, ESPECIALLY IN THE WEST.
          PEOPLE LIKE HH Samosir ARE THERE TO KEEP YOU AWAY FROM THE LIGHT.
          DO YOUR RESEARCHES BEFORE MAKE UP YOUR MIND

          MAY GOD GUIDE YOU ALL TO THE TRUTH
          AND SAVE YOU ALL FROM HYPOCRACY

          LOVE YOU ALL

          BY FOREVER

          NAD

        14. Andy Says:
          November 18th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
          Nad, you worry me. After reading that you live in my country but don’t support our values and morals I regret my government let you in. Imagine if I was given citizenship in Indonesia and sprouted pro Australian or Western ideals in a mosque or somewhere. Wouldn’t people want to kill me?

          Try respecting the people who allowed you to migrate, get a medicare card, live, work and own property. For one, stop supporting these maggots who killed 88 of our people. If you feel so strongly go back home. I’m sure you would be miserable after tasting the good life.

          You are a true example of a need for my country to be more serious about who we let in. You are only one step away from the terror cell in Melbourne that was convicted recently.

        15. Nad Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 5:30 am
          Andy
          HA HA HA (just came back to say few things to my country man/boy/infant)

          Nad, you worry me. After reading that you live in my country

          land of Aboriginals, you elders were brought here! my elders came here, so we both are migrants. You may have a privillage to call yourself SENIOR MIGRANT.

          but don’t support our values and morals I regret my government let you in

          This was the hillarious bit, thats why I am not sure about your age!!!
          I said I dont like drunkards, Sexual predatators, Pornography, Gambling which is destroying our family system.
          And I dont think as Australian, these are our values.
          May be you as an individual can claim this as your value and moral, but please dont Criticise my Australia with such filthy values and morals.
          The values amongst common Austrlalians are, TRUTHFULNESS, PUNCTUALITY, POLITENESS, SYMPATHY, LOVE FOR OUR COUNTRY, LOVE FOR SPORTS etc.
          PLEASE DO NOT PUT US AUSTRALIAN DOWN BY INCLUDING PORN, SEX ETC IN.

          Try respecting the people who allowed you to migrate, get a medicare card, live, work and own property.

          I love Austrlian people! do I have to sign a declaration?
          my fight is with arrogant people whether they are Aussies, Americans or Muslims.
          Little you know! how much I have written agaist terrorism,
          I always admired you for your comments but this time you really put yourself in my opponents.

          For one, stop supporting these maggots who killed 88 of our people.

          FALSE ACCUSATION (AND DO YOU KNOW HOW SERIOUS IT BECOMES IN OUR COURT OF JUSTICE IN AUSTRALIA)please do not attach your Ideas to my name.

          You are a true example of a need for my country to be more serious about who we let in. You are only one step away from the terror cell in Melbourne that was convicted recently.

          YOU MUST BE JOKING,
          YOU ARE MORE OF A THREAT THEN I AM,
          I THINK WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE PEOPLE LIKE YOU SO WE START PREACHING PEACE AND HARMONY/RELIGIOUS/RACIAL TOLLERANCE ONCE AGAIN IN OUR BEAUTIFUL COUNTRY.

          OK
          THIS TIME I MEAN IT
          I AM LEAVING
          PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO ME
          IF YOU DO UNERSTAND THEN THANKS FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING
          IF YOU DONT PLEASE FORGIVE ME AS I WASNT A GOOD TEACHER
          LOVE YOU ALL
          NAD

        16. HH Samosir Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 7:40 am
          Mr Nad,
          I am sorry for I had to laugh, clearly it was a sustained beautiful agony indeed.
          Quite refreshing at its best. I must admit and struck in awe on your exhilarating puns in presenting such ornamental thesis.
          Predictable as to scape-goating those Infidels and Jews for every miserable pain within Islam even to the tiniest, without making further in-depth analysis of internal awareness. Oh well just typical sore looser Fundamentalist mind. Such hypocritical element and self denial.

          Look, all of your answers from list of lie no.1 to 10 are entirely sidestepping. Without giving me a straight answer, to weigh the reason. My son in 3rd grade could excel similar reasoning without pointing it out of where I had it wrong. The very same reasoning to the people that acknowledge Tsunami in Banda Aceh as a result of underwater nuclear bomb either by the Jews or US. No wonder these people are always knocking the door for opportunity in the West as beggar.

          In example on lie no2. NAD says: To you may be, as I said you sound worst than those culprits.but peace loving human being cannot tolerate the killing of millions of fellow human beings on the basis of illegal wars.

          Oh I thought you are a cultured and educated one, my baaaad :-))
          As I said apple to apple is a pairing within same context. You could point your finger to all of those icons as a representation of a REAL entities. Whilst Amrozi or even Osama are a representation of a WHAT? Meaning, one can eliminate those branches but the stomp and root remains the same. Get it?

          NAD says: The only incident happened in Pakistan as a result of anti west protest around 9/11 or Iraq war by some loosers. Whole muslim Ummah condemned the attacks

          Read my lips: BULL-FREAKIN-CRAPS. When two planes crashed to twin-tower, these scene was relayed to all over the world. What did you see? People in Islamic countries were cursing those Jihadist? or perhaps DANCING ON THE STREET? Open your eyes and wake up !! Now who’s liying here?

          NAD says: There are many other lunatics like you, on the net propagating this negativity about ISLAM. and FYI It hasnt done any damage to Islam whatsoever as Islam still is the fastest growing faith and most practicing religion in the world.

          EXACTLY the point. Fastest growing hear means those landlubbers came knocking to the west and with the weapon of their womb to give birth of some 5 – 8 kids while in government benefits. The funny thing, they begin to flock and started to curse the hands that feeds them. As I recall even a DOG never bites the hand that pampered them. Think about that !!

          I will raise my hat and bow in respect, if these people stays and keep on fighting from their homeland. Never wanted even a penny from the infidels to feed them. Now to kind of those fighters are my RESPECT.

          As well my deepest admiration to the people like Mr Ulil and co, with the enlightenment they have brought to this land. To me, them are the true muslimin and nurul Huda.

          I rest my case.

        17. Nour Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
          Hi stupid guy,

          A prophet is rightly guided by God. When one arrives, the people see, in his true conduct and beautiful speech, evidence of the great working of God. There is no doubt about him being sent, because his character is consistent with what he teaches.

          All this applies to our final prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, who is the seal of prophets. So someone who claims to be a prophet, but isn’t one, will be immediatley spotted out.

          Therefore, if someone came, nowadays, and invented religion “XYZ”, as you say, by copying and pasting the Books, it will be obvious that only the ignorant would follow him. What I’m trying to say is that Truth is clear from falsehood. It is obvious.

          The only prophet to make his appearance in this world is the return of Jesus, peace be upon him, whom both the Christains and Muslims agree will return, just as prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, prophecized. And when he returns, it will be clear as day. Then there will be peace for 7 years or more.

          Praise the Lord

        18. Nour Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 12:28 pm
          Hi Aluang Anak Bayang,

          “Moses, Harun, Noah, Abraham, Jesus and Mohammad. Who are these Middle-Eastern dudes by the way?”

          If you read the final revelation sent to mankind, you will have an idea of who these righteous men were. They were all prophets of God, sent to there people to deliver the message that there truly is only One God.

          They displayed the best of character: Kindness, gentleness, mercy, justice, generosity and most of all, love. They were a shining light in the midst of darkness. History has been illuminated by over 124,000 prophets from the time of Adam, peace be upon him right up to the last prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

          Like lighthouses, pointing the way. They were great teachers with the best wisdom.

          Most importantly, they are the best example, as a model, to model our lives. They showed just how we humans may fulfil our role and purpose of life.

          You are right, that there are those people who transgress the bounds, break the laws set by God and trample upon peoples rights. They are the ones who need to be shown the correct way to live, not harshly, but mercifully and gently.

          Wisdom is very important for us, because it enables us to do the things in the best way: putting the right thing in the right place.

          And The Noble Quran is full of wisdom, my friend…

        19. Andy Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
          Nad-The values amongst common Austrlalians are, TRUTHFULNESS, PUNCTUALITY, POLITENESS, SYMPATHY, LOVE FOR OUR COUNTRY, LOVE FOR SPORTS etc.
          PLEASE DO NOT PUT US AUSTRALIAN DOWN BY INCLUDING PORN, SEX ETC IN.

          Where did I mention porn or sex anywhere in my post? You must be thinking about it yourself to include it. The values I was talking about are truth, justice, liberty and freedom of speech. Those values that are despised by muslims particularly the Taliban, JI and Al Qaeda. Now you want to respond or are you seriously signed off now?

        20. Nour Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
          Hi HH Samosir,

          Fastest growing doesn’t only mean newborns.

          Many people, when they realise the truth, embrace Islam. This can only happen when our loving Creator allows it. He chooses who it is that will be guided and who will remain in the dark. It’s His choice.

          Our loving Lord responds to those who ask Him for things. And the best things to ask for are guidance, forgiveness, understanding and knowledge.

          Instead of being antagonistic to Islam, why not try to understand it?

          O our Merciful Lord, please guide me, my family, my people and the whole world. Amen.

        21. Nour Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
          Hi Andy,

          As a Muslim Australian, I’ve been living here since I was 4 years old.

          From my personal experience, I think this is the best country in the world, because it helps the people in every way: The elderly, the jobseekers, the sick, the weak, the homeless, the indigent etc.

          So I believe that this country is truly blessed.

          Al-humdulillah, Praise the Lord.

        22. monyetmerah Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
          Hi Nour,

          Can you please explain why you are so proud with the quantity of Moslems, I would be prouder if the quality that actually increases.

          I am not bagging Islam, but to be honest Islam has been associated with terrorism, intolerance etc. I know partly the media is to be blamed, but you can’t argue that there are some bad ones out there.

          Living in Australia you would know that there are some ullemas (CMIIW) that preach hatred and blame non-moslems for everything.

          I know that there are good Moslems out there, majority are, but we hardly see any action or condemnation for these atrocious acts.

        23. stupid guy Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 3:15 pm

          I know that there are good Moslems out there, majority are, but we hardly see any action or condemnation for these atrocious acts.

          this is why, they are one solid team :

          “We are advocates of the abolition of war, we do not want war; but war can only be abolished through war, and in order to get rid of the gun it is necessary to take up the gun.”

          -Mao Zedong-

        24. Geordie Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
          Nour said the following: –

          Many people, when they realise the truth, embrace Islam. This can only happen when our loving Creator allows it. He chooses who it is that will be guided and who will remain in the dark. It’s His choice.

          Is that (marked in italics) quite true? Isn’t the ‘gift’ of free will one of the central tennants and, in that regard, isn’t it our job to choose to accept, or reject, religion per se? And assuming acceptance, didn’t the Prophet (pbuh) also say something along the lines of ‘…to you, your religion and to me, mine….’?

          It seems that here we have God saying, in effect, ‘..accept or reject Me..’ and his Prophet saying ‘..find your own path to Him..’.

          Now also assuming that you accept the Quaran as the unadulterated word of God and the Haddith as correct guidance for living one’s life in the framework of Islam, how can you ascribe a ‘choice’ to God which He doesn’t seem to give himself? Moreover, assuming you are correct then religion is involuntary and free will would, of necessity, be a myth would it not? Therefore, what would be the point of embracing Islam until and unless so called to do so?

          To me, from a theological point of view, this make a mockey of the act of submission; true submission can only be a voluntary act as anything other is only coercion. And I beleive it was the Prophet (pbuh) who said one cannot be compelled or coerced to beleive, was it not?

        25. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
          Assalamualaikum Nour,

          You seemed well versed in the quran. As a fellow moslem, we should unite and show the kaffir that the Wests would not be where they are if they haven’t stole UFO technology from the quran.

          As a teaser for Andy and other christians, who die on the cross – Judas or Jesus?

          Wasalam.

        26. Aluang Anak Bayang Says:
          November 19th, 2008 at 9:23 pm

          Nour Says:

          November 19th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
          Hi Andy,

          As a Muslim Australian, I’ve been living here since I was 4 years old.

          From my personal experience, I think this is the best country in the world, because it helps the people in every way: The elderly, the jobseekers, the sick, the weak, the homeless, the indigent etc.

          So I believe that this country is truly blessed.

          Al-humdulillah, Praise the Lord.

          Well said, Nour.

          If Allah had not opened the eyes of the Australian policy makers, the white policy would still be around. Allah is all wise.

        27. Nour Says:
          November 20th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
          Hi Monyetmerah, thank you for your reply,

          You are 100% right, the focus should be on quality. It is true we have the quantity and that is a good thing, but the Muslims themselves still need to strive to improve themselves and our Ummah.

          Personally, there are some good Muslims around me who practice the religion as it should be practiced. They are kind and loving. That’s from my experience. But too often, I see in the media things that hurt very much, the image of Islam.

          When we truly try to study the way the prophets lived, especially the final prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, we can get a glimmer of light as to how to properly live our lives.

          A poor example is this: When you buy a T.V or anything for that matter, it comes with an instruction manual, does it not? Well our instruction manual is the Quran and our example of how to implement the Quran is the final prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. He was born about 570 years after Jesus, peace be upon him.

          Search for true knowledge and you will see just how important his example is. He was kind, loving, caring, wise, he kept good relations with kith and kin, he showed mercy to all around him, he was a shining light in the midst of darkness.

        28. Nour Says:
          November 20th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
          Hi stupid guy, thanks for your imput,

          That quote you made is not the philosophy of Islam.

          Islam, in its pure form, teaches peace, mercy, guidance, justice and love.

          It teaches about the One True God. That He is more Merciful than a mother is to her child. That His Mercy overcomes His anger. That He cares and loves His creatures.

          And He wants the best for us. He has made this life just as a simple test to see who believes and who rejects. It’s choice. But ultimately, He knows the choice that you will make and He knows your end. He knows everything. Let me give you an example.

          Hollywood is well known for the awesome movies it makes. But a quick glimpse of how movies are made will shed light on a very important point. All movies have a writer. The writer determines everything that will happen in the movie: the begining, the middle and the end. When the story is accepted, then the movie is made. So we have a script. And the producer sees that everything goes to plan.

          The exact same way, God has written everything, before He made this world. He knows what is going to happen at all times, because He is the “Writer” and the “producer”. He determined what is going to happen even before He made this world. That shows His awesome knowledge, Wisdom and Power.

          I hope that answers your question Geordie. It’s called destiny.

          You do have a choice. But God knows the choice you will make. He encompasses everything by His knowledge and power.

        29. Nour Says:
          November 20th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
          Thank you Aluang Anak Bayang for your reply,

          Salam Alaykum

          It is true that the knowledge of science etc came from the Quran and the West have made use of it.

          If you look into the Quran, you will see many scientific miracles that lead to great developments in science. This knowledge was given to Muhammad, peace be upon him even before these discoveries were made. Amazing.

          Please explain what you mean by “white policy.”

          Wasalaam

        30. Geordie Says:
          November 20th, 2008 at 4:13 pm
          Nour, not such a good analogy (otherwise there’d be no Academy awards for anyone other than the writers and all others would be automatons) but I get the thrust of your point. That said, though the following statement: –

          You do have a choice. But God knows the choice you will make. He encompasses everything by His knowledge and power.

          conflicts with your earlier statement: –

          Many people, when they realise the truth, embrace Islam. This can only happen when our loving Creator allows it. He chooses who it is that will be guided and who will remain in the dark. It’s His choice.

          There’s a whole heap of difference from being able to predict my choice ‘But God knows the choice you will make’ and making the choice for me; ‘He chooses who it is that will be guided and who will remain in the dark. It’s His choice’. As I said in my earlier post, the latter is – in my view – theologically unsound as it makes submission unimportant if not, indeed, redundant.

          In my view, the Quran admonishes us to ’search’ for the truth and ‘choose’ whether to submit to it or not; having foreknowledge of the outcome of that choice (as one would expect from an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent entity) does not infer a predetermined (predestined, if you prefer) outcome because that would, of necessity, abrogate our choice in the matter.

          And unless I’m very much mistaken, there’s nothing in the Quran that states this is the case and, therefore, Nour, are you ascribing something to God that he does not claim for himself? The Quran is full, complete and sufficient for guidance for all Muslims at all times is it not? And, most importantly, it requires no interpretation therefore is your cinematic analogy mere innovation?

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        1. ET Says:
          November 20th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
          Nad said

          and FYI It hasnt done any damage to Islam whatsoever as Islam still is the fastest growing faith and most practicing religion in the world.

          No, no, no… Ahmadiyyah is.

        2. Nour Says:
          November 21st, 2008 at 11:34 am
          Thank you Geordie for your reply,

          These two statements that I made do not conflict, as you say. Please let me explain.

          Consider the following verses from the Noble Quran:

          “And say: “The truth is from your Lord, so let whomsoever will, believe and whomsoever will, reject (God). We have prepared for the Zaalimun (the unjust wrongdoers) a fire which will encircle them all around, like a tent. And when they implore releif (ask for water), we shall give them molten brass which will scald their faces. What a terrible drink and what an evil couch to recline upon” This verse is in chapter 18 (Surat Al-Kahf). This paints the terrible picture of those who are unjust, like tyrants, oppressors etc. And making partners with Allah is the greatest injustice.

          Immediately following this verse is the beautiful end of those who believe and do good deeds.

          “Verily, for those who believe and do righteous good deeds, we shall not cause to be lost the rewards for those who do good. For them will be gardens beneath which rivers flow. They will wear beautiful green, silk garments adorned with heavy brocade. They will recline therein on golden thrones (of dignity). What a graceful place and beautiful couch to recline upon.”

          So now that this knowledge has been given to you, Geordie, you are left with a choice.

          Our Merciful Creator invites us to a beautiful home of eternity. With all the delights and comforts that you can ever imagine. Beautiful gardens, rivers of pure water, rivers of milk, rivers of honey and rivers of wine (see Surat 47, Muhammad). Beautiful spouses better than the best models in this life. Mansions made with bricks of gold, saphire, emerald, gems etc. And the best reward for those who believe and do good deeds is to see our beautiful creator! What excellence!

          The messengers and prophets were sent to deliver the clear message. After that, the people made their own choice and will either suffer the consequences or enjoy the reward.

          But ultimately, all the events that have taken place in the past, all the events that are happening now, and all the events that will take place in the future were all planned and written by our Merciful Lord even before He made this world.

          It’s called destiny.

        3. Nour Says:
          November 21st, 2008 at 11:38 am
          To NAD,

          I just want you to know that I always look forward to hearing from you because you have a bubbly character and awesome personality (with knowledge to match).

          I appreciate all your concerns and feel sad that you are leaving.

          We want you to stay

        4. Nour Says:
          November 21st, 2008 at 12:07 pm
          To Geordie, I have been looking forward to your posts since I met you (only recently) so thank you,

          Yes, you are 100% right. Submission is nothing if it is forced upon someone. It’s coersion as you said. And this is even in the Noble Quran:

          Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clearly from error. So whoever rejects Taghut (anything worshipped besides Allah) and believes in Allah, has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah is the All-Hearing, All-Knowing.” The Noble Quran 2:256

          So what you said coincides with the Quran, that force should not be used to make people believe. So, as I said, when people realise the truth of Islam, they are more inclined to accept it, inshallah. But it can only happen if Allah allows it. The point being is that we should ask Him for guidance, and be persistant, because no-one can force Allah to do something that He doesn’t want to do.

          Yes, the Quran encourages us to “search” for the truth and choose to submit or not. Exactly. But this all occurs according to pre-determined destiny.

          And Geordie, I seek refuge in Allah from ever saying about Him what is not true and I also seek refuge with Allah from ever making innovation. These acts carry a heavy penalty indeed. So I apologize if it seemed that way.

          Yes, the Quran is full and sufficient for Muslims of all times.

          I only made that analogy to give you a rough idea: namely that, if we humans do not make movies unless we have a script, how can you say that Allah, who is infinitely much wiser and knowledgable, hasn’t planned this world or knows the outcome?. To say that we are smarter than God doesn;t make sense. I never said that the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said that analogy (of the movie makers).

          Again, I apologize for any misunderstanding.

        5. Geordie Says:
          November 21st, 2008 at 5:21 pm
          Nour, no need to apologize I was simply using a debating device, unkindly as it turns out because I can see that you’re sincere and ascribing to you innovation was a low blow. In that regard, please accept my apologies.

          In your first response above, I do indeed understand the rewards that await the faithful and the torture that await those who fail to adhere to God’s teaching. Got that but these are, necessarily, functions of true submission or the failure to truely submit, is that not so? Assuming I’ve correctly understood then, I can accept that God knows whether my submission is valid or not and equally that he can predict whether I will or will not submit but I contend that knowing what I will do and causing me to do it are two different things.

          The Christian Brothers knocked into us the catechism which, theologically speaking, is about the same sort of thing though a heluva lot longer that the Islamic profession of faith. God does indeed know what’s going to happen but seeing as we’ve also been given free will He can’t influence our decision. Equally, I accept for those who he knows are going to be successful, He might make their submission easy, fullfilling and unshakeable. That would seem sensible, laudable even, because in this day and age when it’s fashionable to be cynical and religion is viewed as an anchronism, the faithful need all the breaks they can get.

          I think where you and I fail to agree is in the matter of destiny; my view is that destiny infers an agency outside my control ordaining the path which I shall follow thus rendering free will obsolete and submission redundant. God, as I understand it, ordained that every other living thing along with supernatural beings would be natural Muslims; in other words by their very nature they could be no possibility that in so ‘being’ as they are, they could do no other than be as God intended, love Him above all else and fulfill their purpose as He wills. However, for the best of his creations, which he loved the most, it was decided that requited love would only suffice which gave rise to the ’cause’ of free will.

          If, however, by destiny you mean that God simply knows the choice I will make without any interference on His part then, whilst I think that deffinition is inaccurate, I accept it works for you and is appropriate in the context employed. In that I’m damned/saved, was always damned/saved and always will be damned/saved and that that is of my own free will and volition.

          For the avoidance of doubt, I’m not Christian, Muslim, Bhuddist, Atheist or any other religion for that matter.

        6. Nour Says:
          November 21st, 2008 at 7:31 pm
          Hi Geordie, thank you for your response,

          All forgiven.

          You said:

          Got that but these are, necessarily, functions of true submission or the failure to truely submit, is that not so?

          It must be made clear that there are levels in both belief and unbelief.

          As for belief, there are Muslims, Mu’mins and Muhsins. Muslims are those who believe in Allah and His messenger but generally still commit major sins. The next level up is Mu’min (believer) who avoids major sins but still makes mistakes. A Muhsin is the highest level, a state where he/she worships Allah as though they see Him, and although they cannot see Him, they realise that He sees them. ANd they live with this awareness.

          In disbelief, there are those who act out of ignorance (without knowledge). Then there is the severe case of those who know the truth but work against Allah. This is clearly stated in the Noble Quran:

          “Allah is the friend and protector of those who believe. From darkness, He will lead them into the light. ANd those who disblieve, their friends are Taghut (evil), which will drag them from the light into the darkness. They will find themselves in Hellfire, where they will abide.” The Noble Quran 2:257

          So it comes down to choice, my friend Geordie, but our Loving Lord knows what we will choose.

          Let me give you another example which may help illustrate this point (although I’m not the best at giving examples as you’ve figured).

          Suppose you have a young child, about 6-7 years old. You offer him two things and ask him to choose. The first is stale, rotten bread with maggots coming out. The second is sweet, colourful candy. You, undoubtidly, know which he will choose although you did not take away his choice. He is free to choose yet you can easily know which one he will take.

          Similarily, Allah has placed before us a choice: Heaven or Hell. Now, this is your choice. It is obvious which one a person with sense will choose. And, let me make a note, that everyone, by their actions, chooses one or the other, knowingly or unknowingly. This is a fact. Because let me share with you a beautiful fact that our noble prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, told us.

          That Allah will not admit anyone to Hellfire until He has convinced them that they are worthy of it. He will look at all your sayings and actions, in this worldly life, which are kept in a clear record, and He wil even show you it. That way, your own record is proof against you or for you. And He is a Just and Merciful Judge, He will not wrong any.

          A glimmer of hope is this. Anyone who says La ilaha ill Allah (there is no god but God) will be saved from the Hellfire, if he were to go there. This simple statement outweighs all deeds.

          Speak to you soon inshallah.

        7. Geordie Says:
          November 21st, 2008 at 8:11 pm
          Nour, I do believe that we’re in violent agreement, moreover, I admire your faith and sincerity.

          Religion for me is a pleasant mind game, a platform for an engaging philisophical debate in which I get to test my opinions and, where necessary, re-examine them. One can do this because all religions and denominations within those relgions differ so wildly and each convinced that it alone possesses the ‘one, true and only way’ to get to heaven. It’s so easy to take a contrary view and argue convincingly, from a theological persepective, on matters of religious observance that it’s hard to resist.

          Faith is, of course, an entirely different matter and I will not question, doubt or seek to alter another’s faith in what they believe.

          And on that note, I do believe that we can bring our debate to a close. Thank you Nour, I’ve enjoyed the exchange.

        8. Nour Says:
          November 23rd, 2008 at 11:53 am
          To Geordie,

          I understand that you want to bring our conversation to a close but there is one final thing I must say.

          I realise now that I made a very unwise move to begin with, and for that I apologize. Let me explain.

          There are 6 pillars of Iman (faith)

          1. Belief in God

          2. Belief in His angels

          3. Belief in His prophets

          4. Belief in His Books

          5. Belief in The Day of Judgement

          6. Belief in Destiny

          Somehow we got stuck on the 6th pillar without giving number 1 it’s due rights, because without an understanding of number 1, the others don’t make much sense. So I am sorry for jumping to the most difficult to understand instead of explain the fundamentals, which are simple. What just happened was like trying to explain Algebra to someone who doesn’t know how to count between 1 to 10. Or trying to build a building without laying the concrete foundations. It doesn’t make sense.

          We need to lay the foundations.

          Sorry, my bad.

        9. Geordie Says:
          November 24th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
          Nour, again no need to apologize and I do get the point you’re making it’s just our definitions of destiny that differ. And it’s not necessarily that I want to close the conversation, it’s just that we don’t appear to disagree anymore so I’m not sure what we’d be debating.
        10. Nour Says:
          November 26th, 2008 at 11:50 am
          To Geordie,

          Who says we have to debate? Can’t we have a fruitful discussion? I enjoy those )

          You say that:

          Religion for me is a pleasant mind game, a platform for an engaging philisophical debate in which I get to test my opinions and, where necessary, re-examine them.

          Well, religion talks about reality, it’s not really a mind game.

          take for example these verses:

          “In the name of Allah, Most Gracious Most Merciful.

          When the sky is rent asunder.

          When the stars are scattered abroad.

          When the ocean is made to explode.

          When what’s in the graves is turned upside down (comes out)

          Then, every soul will know what it has sent forth and what it has left behind.”

          The noble Quran 82:1-5

          These tremendous events signifying the last Day are reality. These short, but powerful verses shake the hearts and detaches them from this worldly life and enables us to put our trust in Him who Sees, Hears and Knows all.

          If there is one thing you can take away from this is that seeking knowledge is encumbant on all believers. Seek the truth.

          Knock, and the door will be opened, seek and you will find.

          Our Lord has many beautiful qualities.

          He is the Eternal, Self-subsisting. He doesn’t have a birth or death. he is The First and The Last.

          He does not need to eat or drink or sleep or rest, yet He maintains this whole universe with ease.

          He has power to resurrect the dead, as He will do to all of us on the Great Day of Judgement.

          He can see, hear and know everything you are doing even though there may seem to be no-one around. His angels write down in our records all our sayings and actions. We will get our records on the Day of Judgement.

          Allah is more merciful than a mother is to her child. He cares about us and loves us and wants the best for us. So it is important to keep our relationship with Him very healthy. All else will perish except His beautiful Face.

          He has created us for a reason: namely, to worship Him. Worship means anything that pleases Him, whether its praying, fasting, charity, reading the revelation, gaining knowledge, being good to parents, siblings, relatives, neighbours, friends, poor people, homeless etc. Even smiling is an act of charity. Even removing an obstacle from the path is charity and will be rewarded.

          But the best deed is to declare La ilaha ill Allah (there is no god but God).

          I advise you because I care about you, Geordie, and everyone here.

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